Wednesday, August 6, 2008

Even More info from Tyler Hamilton on EEStor

In his blog, Tyler Hamilton provides additional information about his recent conversation with Dick Weir. Here's the link Hamilton says that Weir likened EEStor's work to the Manhattan II project. That's actually someting Dick told me as well last Friday. I'll post more information about that conversation now that Tyler has provided a good foundation.



Note: We will be transitioning to a new web platform in the coming days. We'll probably turn off comments on this blog but continue to post new content until a majority have migrated over to the new site. I'll be investigating ways to import the old content to the new site. Overall the plan will be to transition slowly---we will probably encounter bugs, unexpected issues, etc. But we'll work through them. Testing on the new platform is going well. I probably need about 3-4 people to help with a second round of testing so shoot me an email if you can assist. Actually, maybe I should combine a couple desires here. If you've contacted me about some content you want to get up on the blog, shoot me an email because you can throw it up in the forums and we'll see if you encounter any issues. email: eestorblog@gmail.com




116 comments:

mrjerry said...

7) Weir's relationship with Lockheed Martin runs deeper than first thought. "Who's best at certifying what we've got? Lockheed," said Weir. "They've seen our factory. I've been working with them since 2001."

Humm, if your working with eestor, why do you sign a contract with little guy like Zenn in 2004? If this is consider the "Manhattan II." Project, why is this even public? Why is even Kleiner Perkins involve.. it seems the more answers we get, the more questions we have

ricinro said...

Defense related work sometimes involves secrecy agreements greater than even a NDA.
Zenn is an electric car company. GM, a few years back, was known
as a EV killing company. I am sure eestor could get the terms they wanted with Zenn better than they could get with a major auto firm. If the device works the big three will come crawling.
To use expressions like "game changing" and "manhattan II".
But a few player (from diverse sectors) have a small slice of the pie but they don't call the shots.
Not too democratic but then again perhaps Richard Weir is benevolent and understands the tyranny of business.

Manthan said...

EEStor investing in ZENN or vise-versa was the smartest thing both companies did.

ZENN if i eestor works out will be bought by GM or Ford or whoever for big $$.

EEStor gets new investors, while creating a contract with a company that will be bought by a big one, thus insuring they dont have to work with big company contracts.

if EESU works then ZENN and EEStor will be valued at billions.

if it doesnt, ZENN will be out of business or there stock will go to less then a dollar. and of course EEStor will be out of business and Richard Weir will have some head hunters on his back.

my bet is that it does work, there is really no way that a company so heavily invested by big names can keep a sherade going this long, but it could be a new record.

b said...

mr jerry, can you shoot me an email? eestorblog@gmail.com i was wondering if you'd help test some forums.

Ken said...

B, thank you very much for reactivating the RSS feed content!
:)

OntarioInvestor said...

.

Bretspot said...

How Do I get the RSS feed of comments to work? (Sorry RSS Noob, but this blog is consuming my life!!!) Go Quantum Super Caps!

I read the patent on the Quantum Super Caps, and its was mind blowing. Especially since I know little or nothing about Quantum mechanics, other than they dont always behave like you expect them too. I cant wait till EESU's are out so "How stuff works" can do an episode on them and explain them in plain english. Unless someone here wants to have a go at it. (If they infact work how the Q-Supercaps show in the article). Cheers!

TomBfromLouisiana said...

One must consider other reasons for the secrecy of EEstor and their lack of open communication.

First and foremost, if their technology is truly a "game changer" as billed to be the news will certainly not sit well for those in the oil and gas industry. Also consider that EEstor sits in the heart of Texas oil country. That's like living in a straw village and selling matches for a living.

There will be no doubt that if EEstor delivers as promised there will be those out to destroy them any way possible.

EEstor's technology is good for the world as a whole but people resist change especially when their livelihood is at stake. Many people and companies rely heavily on oil, gas, the internal combustion engine and all the peripheral businesses that feed into and off of a petroleum based economy. Especially the good people of the Lone Star State.

Please consider these factors when you ask yourself why EEstor is so low key!!!

ricinro said...

Bretspot,
So far it seems as if no one can explain how it works and there are a few who insist that it can't work. Meanwhile, Richard Weir insists that he is building a second generation production line, with materials that are better than expected.
All this appears to be happening in a quiet little building in Texas.
We get to read between lines and wait for the permittivity milestone.
After the proof is out we then get to speculate or dream of applications and utopia.

Bretspot said...

Can someone address how to get the RSS feed working? Thats my main concern :)

Charles Barton said...

Tyler certainly did not take long to pick up the term "EEStory", which I believed I coined in a July 26, post on Nuclear Green. Well at least I think I coined it first. I googled it, and did not come up wiyj an earlier usage.

Will said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
OntarioInvestor said...

I can verify that ZNN will be moving to the NASDAQ. In fact, it is more likely that they will first move to the NASDAQ prior to them moving to the TSX main board from the venture.

mrjerry said...

Y_po since you will not reply to christine... I researched and found this paper... you might learn something from it... Point for christine

www.ifs.tu-darmstadt.de/fileadmin/phil/nano/khushf.pdf


(1) Bridging quantum and classical domains The process of analysis involves breaking wholes into their components. Synthesis entails
building the wholes back up from their constituent parts. The grand project of reduction postulated that as one moves downward in scale, there is a general continuity in the logic of interaction between wholes and parts. However, as one approaches the bottom end of the nano-region, there is a shift to a quantum domain where the logic of explanation is radically altered. There is thus a floor to the classical domain; a discontinuity exists between it and the quantum level. What characterizes the nano-region is that one must bridge the quantum and classical. As Michael Roukes notes, “[m]atter at this mesoscale is often awkward to explore. It contains too many atoms to be easily understood by the straightforward applica-tion of quantum mechanics (although the fundamental laws still apply). Yet these systems are not so large as to be completely free of quantum effects; thus, they do not simply obey the classical physics governing the macroworld. It is precisely in this intermediate domain,the mesoworld, that unforeseen properties of collective systems emerge” (Roukes 2003, p.
93). The assumptions of the grand project of reduction do not help the nano-scientist come to terms with this strange middle world. Here the metaphor is one of “bridging” not “reduc-tion”.

Y_Po said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Y_Po said...


Y_po since you will not reply to christine... I researched and found this paper... you might learn something from it


What am I supposed to learn here ?
That there is new physics at nano scale? I knew that before.

Neil said...

to ontarioinvestor,
your comment on ZENN moving to the NASDAQ intrigues me. How is it you are able to verify this?
We all look forward to your reply.

mrjerry said...

y_po wow you read 13 pages in 5 seconds, maybe you read only what you want to see..

I am not a scientist but the paper explains where you are coming from as a physicist and therefore this paper balances you expertise with others in the nano field. quatum effects christine talkeed about, this paper backs that up, she gets more credibility to me.

As Michael Roukes notes, “[m]atter at this mesoscale is often awkward to explore. It contains too many atoms to be easily understood by the straightforward applica-tion of quantum mechanics (although the fundamental laws still apply). Yet these systems are not so large as to be completely free of quantum effects; thus, they do not simply obey the classical physics

larry said...

a little confusing, but after looking at nasdaq website, it seems a co. needs $30M stockholder equity or $1M operating income to get listed. If so, ZENN not there yet.

Y_Po said...

mrjerry,
Classical physics normally means non quantum physics.

What I learned that somebody use "classical" as opposite to nano scale. Well, in my dictionary classical is still nonQM.

larry said...

I left my very elementary question on the other "Tyler" page and didn't get an answer, I'll try here. For this dummy, electrical energy depends on voltage (emf)and current(electrons/time). This CMBT capacitor seems to withstand a very high voltage. The second need is a large amount of little electrons, which seem to be limited by surface area, which is why I guess the nanocapacitor guys try to multiply surface area with nanotubes. I haven't seen anything that sasys the EESU does any nanoing to multiply surface area, so my question of the SMEs is: can enough electrons get reved up on the available surface area with the stated voltage to equal the claimed energy density?

Y_Po said...

larry,
To increase amount of charge (at given voltage) EEstor use high permittivity dielectric in their capacitor. The problem here is amount of charge it can support is limited. That is why people don't believe EEstor claims.

Matt said...

Larry,

In a capacitor, the energy is stored in the bulk of the dielectric that is sandwiched between the two electrodes. Charges in the dielectric shift as you charge the capacitor, storing energy, and spring back as you discharge it, releasing that energy.

If you use a dialectric that is naturally very thin, like that formed by the liquid electrolyte in electrolytic capacitors, then the only way to get a lot of that dielectric working for you in a small space is to make the surface on which is deposited very convoluted -- to cram as much surface area into that small space as you can.

EEstor's dielectric isn't like that. It's a bulk material that can be as thick as you like, so they don't have to go all nano to increase surface area. Unfortunately, however, for a given amount of dielectric, the voltage you have to use to store a given amount of energy is proportional to its thickness, so it can't be too thick.

EEstor's dielectric is 10 microns thick, which is huge compared to nanotube capacitors, and that's why they have to use 3500 volts across it to store a similar amount of energy.

larry said...

matt, thanks, that must explain why they talk about the material being a very fine powder - to increase surface area per volume.

Rod said...

What are ZENNS rights with regards to EESTOR exactly? On the technical side, they own exclusivity to what?

larry said...

As I read on ZENN website, exclusive worldwide rights to conversions of existing vehicles, to golf carts and utility vehicles and to passenger vehicles up to 1400 kg, net of battery. Also, saw somewhere they don't include high performance sports cars even if weight less than 1400kg. Also, have non exclusive rights to any size vehicle.

Y_Po said...


matt, thanks, that must explain why they talk about the material being a very fine powder - to increase surface area per volume.

You confuse EEstor with Maxwell.
In EEstor their energy density has nothing to do with surface area per volume.

larry said...

y_po,
then, why do they emphasize their success at getting the material down to 1 micron size and consistent?

Y_Po said...


y_po,
then, why do they emphasize their success at getting the material down to 1 micron size and consistent?

good question, ask Mr. Weir :)

Rod said...

Larry,

Is there any definition to what “rights” mean and to what “high performance” means in this agreement with EESTOR. For instance, is it rights to produce consumer products or rights to provide drive trains or what? I would guess that some good old fashion parsing of the language of that agreement is going to be subject to as much scrutiny as the science is now, maybe I am wrong but I would sure like to see a copy of that agreement. Can anyone help?

Rod said...

If EESTOR has what it says and the EESU is really a game changer then I can’t see how Zenn can ride that wave, they have too big of a fish. There is just no way they will land it.

I can’t see how the potential of the EESU as its hyped now could have been conceived at the time of the agreement, there is no way Zenn can manage world wide demand if the EESU is as billed, they will instantly bottle neck the entire world and they will have to negotiate out of the agreement or it will be broke.

Some mechanism must be in the agreement for modifying the agreement if Zenn cannot meet demand. EESTOR will move a big percentage of its product through the retro’s, and small car market, how can they allow a small outfit to govern the output, it will never happen. So how is the agreement gong to be is broke or at what price does Zenn have to sell its rights back to EESTOR, its inevitable if the EESU is a breakthrough.

Marcus said...

Ok, yet another crazy patent?

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=IB1997000985&DISPLAY=DESC

13000 j/cc? No mention of dielectric saturation...

Comments?

Y_Po said...

Marcus,
And it is 10 years old. I guess they are still working on their 13,000 J/cc.

Marcus said...

The applicant is ENERGENIUS. Apparently it was all going great till they actually tested a prototype, probably around 2003......

http://www.energenius.com/news/whatnewf.html

LOL....

Y_Po said...


July 1, 2000 - Energenius Files Twenty-One Additional Patents Relating to its Proprietary Triple-S Energy Storage Technology

LOL
How many new patents EEstor promised to file?

OntarioInvestor said...

ZNN moving to the NAS has been a strategy as mentioned in a previous pose via financial reports. When a company gets close to listing, feelers are put out in the investment community for block investors (large hedge/pension/mutual fund houses) to get a feel for apetite for such a listing (almost like a mach red herring report, but not official). They have to see if the demand/liquidity is there in the markets. Most of the blocks are pre-sold off at an offering price before the public can buy in. Eventually wind of this info filters down through the channels (as per the e-trade broker comment..etc.). Now if i were to say that I heard such a thing, it would be insid er trading; I will not say i have heard such comments.

My opinion of what will follow is that things with EEstor/Zenn will be moving in unison, and quite rapidly (Weir/Cliffor have both confirmed they are in constant contact, and Wier has stated that he will be making news releases soon and frequent). My personal feel is that a listing will come on the NAS/TSX, along with an issuance of new stock/or new corp debt, in unison with the announcement of strategy for funds derived from the new stock/debt (this would also come in line with the test results, and most likely production initiation).

I can understand the strategy....they feel they have something really important, and sought after. They feel no reason to show their cards before they are ready to roll out...and trust me Wier/Clifford certainly aren't going to waver from their strategy because a couple of guys in a blog start bashing them for not showing their hand. Let us stick to our blog, and them to running their respective companies. It serves everyone's best interst.

tonon said...


a listing will come on the NAS/TSX, along with an issuance of new stock/or new corp debt


Ontario investor: what do you think this means for ZNN stock when it lists, or announces a new listing and or new debt?

A normal company's stock goes down when this happens, no? When companies go after new money, it means they were not able to get it from revenue, hence it could be seen as a sign of weakness, ie we need money now and we will dilute our shares or go into debt to get it.

However, for ZNN, which i think we'd all agree, is not a normally operating company, things might be different.

Any thoughts on what the shares will do if they list, and still keep secret?

paulcummings55 said...

If I might leave a little lighter post here- a couple of y'all have made reference to EESTOR being stuck in Texas- in the middle of this redneck-infested, pickup-driving oil-filled country where everyone is out to do-in these ne'er do-wells at EESTOR for postulating the end our the (oil) world as we know it! Nothing could be further from the truth (well, except maybe about the pickups). I might remind y'all that Austin, my home, is the home to such technological stalwarts like MMC, Sematech, Dell Computer (and not to mention a large presence by IBM, Motorola and AMD), and newer companies like Heliovolt and Actacell. Austin Energy also has one of the best programs in the US for renewable energy, both in purchasing it, and in rebates for home-owners who want to install it. When I was a young lad, growing up in Houston no less, my cousin from Connecticut came to visit back in the late 60's- he was shocked that everyone in Texas did not own a horse and have an oil well in their backyard;-) No, I think you will find that Texas as a whole, and Austin in particular, provides a very good incubator for innovation. (and since the thermometer hit a 105 this last Sunday, 'incubator' might be too timid a word;-)

Tom Villars said...

Rod,

Take a look at the latest press release for what rights ZENN has purchased from EEStor.

Lensman said...

Rod said...

If EESTOR has what it says and the EESU is really a game changer then I can’t see how Zenn can ride that wave, they have too big of a fish.

[snip] there is no way Zenn can manage world wide demand if the EESU is as billed, they will instantly bottle neck the entire world and they will have to negotiate out of the agreement or it will be broke.


It's hard to see how ZENN Motors would go broke by having more demand for their product than they could possibly satisfy. Every manufacturer in the world would like to have that "problem".

But if ZENN Motors wanted to, it *could* just license the technology and subcontract the work to other companies. They *could* do nothing but play middleman and still get obscenely rich.

For example, do you know how much of the original IBM PC desktop computer was made by IBM? The name plate that said "IBM". That's all.

Christine said...

So as to the question as to "What is the central problem in Physics today" Book-em-Dano, Marcus, and Arron all got it in that order. If anyone else got it and I missed it I apologize.

My approach to EEStor is that I will assume that they have got it. What I want is to understand how the did it. I take this view because I find it the most interesting and the most fun. I have found this topic to be the most captivating topic since High Temperature Superconductivity.

What follows are a few papers I have located during my lunch hour. There literally thousands of papers out there and I have only skimmed the surface. Literature researches can take years. I see that others are coming up with good candidate papers and patents also. That is the way to use the collective intelligence.

"Dielectric Behavior of Single Domain Crystals of BaTiO3"
Gordon C. Danielson et al
Phys. Rev. 74, 986 (1948)
This paper a 500:1 directional dependency for dielectric constants.

"The Dielectric behavior of BaTiO3 Single Domain Crystals"
Walter J. Merz
Phys. Rev. 75, 687 (1949)
Large (mm2) BaTiO3 X-tals constants measure to confirm the Danielson et al results. 20:1 directional dependency. Papers in those days were very short and tended to simply announce results. Paper stated that a BaTiO3 crystal was obtained. Now days a paper would go into great detail to describe exactly how the crystal was made including the synthesis of the powder.
It is impossible to comment on things like the purity of this BaTiO3. I do know that I am forever amazed by the accomplishments of scientist of the two century's prior to the 1950s.

"Enhanced Piezoelectric Property of Barium Titanate Single Crystals with Engineered Domain Configuration"
Satoshi Wada et al
Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. 38 (1999)
I could only get the abstract for this very interesting Japanese paper. This abstract put forth some very interesting speculation about interfacial charge accumulations. This paper seems to be in the same vein as the Korean paper that Marcus found. I am going to try to get this paper in full.

"Nanocomposite Dielectrics-Properties and Implications"
J. K. Nelson et al
J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys.38 (2005)
This paper had me a little excited until I was able to confirm that Carl Nelson form EEStor was spelled with a C. I am pretty sure that they would never have published anything.
Here the nano particles are TiO2 suspended in a resin matrix. This is another paper that talks about how interface changes the bonding that may give rise to an interaction zone, which affects the interfacial through the formation of local conductivity.
A statement in the conclusion caught my eye was "the observed unusual high permittivity of nanocomposites at low frequencies." I think that this will become a theme for dielectrics suspended in a polymer matrix.

"Dielectric Properties of Polyvinyl Alcohol Filled with Nanometer Size Barium Titanate"
Enis Tunser et al
2007 Annual Report Conference on Electrical Insulation and Dielectric Phenomena
This Oak Ridge paper is a study of nano BaTiO3 and TiO2 suspended in a solgel matrix. No evidence of any attempt to polarize the particles and the loadings seem to be nominal. Once again this paper shows that high permittivity occurs at lower frequency. This suggest that a huge component of the permittivity comes from an increased dipole moment for nano dielectrics.

Y_Po I notice that Wikipedia has an open invitation to anyone to write a description of dielectric saturation. Think you are up to it? Yes I know I said I was not going to acknowledge you but I find you too interesting.

I will be off to a funeral tomorrow and a wedding two days later. I will check back in Sunday. I think that I would like to talk about the two powder making patents.
Bye

ricinro said...

Thanks Christine for a gracious and positive attitude to the science end of this blog. I am sure that we will all benefit from the "off the beaten path" research that may shed light on the phenomenom that Eestor is exploiting in their device and Pro...duct...sion... linnne (still love that!).
I am curious as to how Richard Weir and Carl Nelson stumbled across this apparent solution prior to the papers you listed. These gentlemen are engineers with experience in the disk drive industry. Would these materials have been involved in disk drives or IBM R&D circles to where they would have seen (or been plagued by) this phenomenom?

Y_Po said...


My approach to EEStor is that I will assume that they have got it.

Here you go.
Someone complained there were no "experts" who would say "it may work"
Now we have one

Y_Po said...


Y_Po I notice that Wikipedia has an open invitation to anyone to write a description of dielectric saturation. Think you are up to it?

Interesting, apparently our only optimistic expert tried to educate herself and found out that wiki don't have an article.

Christine said...

"I am curious as to how Richard Weir and Carl Nelson stumbled across this apparent solution prior to the papers you listed."

My view of the literature search is that it is exactly equivalent to putting a 1000+ jigsaw puzzle together when someone has dumped a 100 different puzzles out on the table.

If I can garner one nugget from a paper it is a seminal paper. If I can get 2 or more nuggets it is a landmark paper.

I doubt that Richard Weir and Carl Nelson exactly stumble upon this. I think every budding engineering student had the same idea somewhere in third quarter Engineering Physics. And then reality sets in.

It is possible that somewhere in building of disk drive they made their landmark connections. Capacitor Man once asked the same question about the disk drives and the capacitor connection stating that one was an magnetic phenomena and the other was an electrical phenomena. I would gently like to point out that they are simply two aspects of the same underlying phenomena. Dielectrics are used in the semiconductor industry to prevent electrical cross talk. Might be some magnetic parallel.

In the mean time we will keep pulling out pieces of the puzzle, passing them around and putting them together. Maybe we will start to see what the picture is going to look like before it is published in Popular Science.

Christine said...

"Here you go.
Someone complained there were no "experts" who would say "it may work"
Now we have one"

Still haven't bought ZNN. I like my investments to have the clarity of a chess game. I play poker in Las Vegas.

I think I shall henceforth address you as EEYore.

Randy said...

A few weeks ago, Lockheed purchased a company that specializes in creating laser-based solutions for national defense.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/0728hq-aculight.html

I immediately thought of EEStor when I saw this press release.

mrjerry said...

Reported purchase of eestor for Rail GUN by Northrop Grumman (Note:they have contracts with Lockheed Martin). The person posting certainly is an expert in this area..
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4231461.html


91. RE: World’s Most Powerful Rail Gun Delivered to Navy
Basically what they need to do is interrupt the shock wave through the rails. The easiest way to do that would be, introducing phononic gaps or rather changes in the material to break up the pressure wave front. The easiest way to do that would be by using a cold sintered ceramic deposition method. That way the layers could be tailored to disrupt the initial shock wave front. The trick with ceramics is that they can withstand great pressures, but you need the pressure gradient to be not too steep. That way you prevent glassification from occurring. Glassification occurs when the periodic structure of a ceramic material is deformed. Which means the ceramic end up having the characteristics of glass, more like your grandmothers fine China. There is also the problem with micro fractures, but that can be dealt with. The real big thing which was holding back this technology was capacitors. But Northrop Grumman, a few months back setup a contract with EEStor. They now have access to as many ultra-capacitors as they need. Anyway, good luck on this project. It should be doable now. The only problem slowing the US down would really be how intelligent the scientists are. That are working on the project. From what I've seen of Ph D's within the last few years. Things are looking rather grim on that front.

steve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alex said...

I can't believe no one else has realized that B may actually be moving this blog onto the new EEStor website! Right under our very noses!

Tom Villars said...

Alex,

Stop that. He is not moving the blog to the EStor site.

Alex said...

;-). Ok. But whats the new domain?

taa said...

Could OntarioInvestor or anyone else for that matter, indicate the financial consequences for current Zenn shareholders if Zenn listed on NASDAQ.

Satya51 said...

Christine,
Did you look through the patent on Quantum supercapacitor? Our resident Eestor nemesis immediately dismissed it as patent babble.

I am glad that Eestor has caught your hobby attention. I can't figure out why it has caught EN's attention.

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
larry said...

mr.jerry,
where is the reference to eestor in the rail gun article? thanks

stephen_b said...

Lastly, although you may have a PhD in physics christine, not initially understanding the basis of dielectric saturation would under normal circumstances lay some doubt on your status as an expert in this field at an academic level.

Physics is a big big field. Whether or not it is possible to have a formulation of barium titanate with a high permittivity under strong electric field probably isn't something that will come up on your thesis defense. Except perhaps if your thesis is on barium titanate.

I'm an EE, and while I use dielectric constants in my everyday work, the ones I used don't change with E field strength.

Stephen

Satya51 said...

Marcus,
I have a distaste for condescension and ridicule no matter who it is from. When trying to understand anything that requires brainstorming, it is especially unhelpful and shuts down progress as there is always an ego risk to suggest an idea. Further, it is not unusual to find babies in bath water so best not to throw the whole thing out.

I think Christine's presence will give a little hope for progress in your investigation.
cheers

OntarioInvestor said...

When a stock moves to the NAS/TSX, there is typically a 25%-50% appreciation in the stock price (at min). There is a whole new pool of investors that now have the ability to invest in the company (spoke to previously). It typically makes sense to offer more shares at this point, especially with a strategy for their fundings' use. Due to the new buyers in the market, you would need to have more liquidity with the stock.

Now ZNN doesn't have to issue new shares when they move to the bigboard (that is just a theory that i think will occur, because i think they will disclose more strategy at this point). They will need to raise funds for the type of growth that they are talking about. They could go private (bank, VC), but it would make more sense that if they have a proven product to let the market to have access to more shares. Their are tax implications/movitations to either strategy. That being said, if the decision goes to issue shares, it would come at a point that the existing shares would be worth considerably more at current levels (due to the strategy/production initiation). The sentiment i am getting in the market is that this stock will pop considerably accompanying the news of production.

I also agree with the point of not hammering on the skeptics on this. It is good to have healthy debate, no one should take it personally. Just to give you some perspective on my trading stategies, i am not a hopelessly long optimist. I shortsold approximately $60K worth of Canandian Tire Stock in the past few days, and am about to close out the trade for a 6% gain (with a short trade comes with the stock depreciating). I currently short more stocks then i go long on. It is much easier to pick losers in the market (especially in bear mode). I have stated my views in the past on why i am long on ZNN.

Marcus said...
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Marcus said...
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rotsee said...

If things are going so well with EESTOR and a product, meeting their published specifications, is about to be released, wouldn't Kleiner Perkins be aware of this? So why is K.P. not investing heavily in ZENN driving up the price? I can’t imagine that they would be considered insiders of ZENN, and an easy 10X gain certainly must appeal to any investment house. This goes for all the Engineers and scientists (according to Weir there have been a lot of them) that have signed NDA’s and reviewed the technology. What is stopping them along with their family and friends from investing heavily in ZENN?

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
larry said...

hi again SME's, please forgive a non physicist and correct my errors: permittivity = charge density x distance / voltage. for given voltage and thickness, how would one measure permittivity other than by measuring charge density (thru amount of electrical energy discharged from a capacitor). if this is correct and EESTOR measured permittivity of numerous samples of known thickness at known voltage, doesn't this mean the electrical energy was there, no matter what the science says. If so, only two possibilities, they have it or they lied about the test results?

a question said...

Hello Christine,

Thanks for continuing with the conversation. In defense of Y_Po, he’s mostly harmless, and a good devil’s advocate (if sometimes a little too flippant.) But at least he’s not trying to pump Zenn stock. And in fairness to Christine, Marcus, how did she say she “did not initially understanding the basis of dielectric saturation.” Was it that she simply noticed that “Wikipedia has an open invitation to anyone to write a description of dielectric saturation?” She can tell that from the wiki entry on Eestor (as I noticed. There’s a red link for the term, meaning, no wiki entry.) To say that she was on wikipedia to look up dielectric saturation is an assumption, and one meant to characterize unfairly at that.

Okay, …

Christine, I’m certainly no expert but you might want to focus further literature searches on “dopped” barium titanates. A key element the information Weir passes on (whether or not it works) is that he’s working with zirconium substituted material. Research on how zirconium alone changes the dielectric properties of BT might be worth looking into. But also keep an open mind as to how the addition of calcium and the coating of aluminum plays into this. As well as the void-less manufacturing.

Joseph Perry’s research at Georgia Tech's Center for Organic Photonics and Electronics might be worth looking at too. He’s embedding high-k dielectrics into a polymer matrix. Apparently he has some success in making normal BT more insensitive to voltage breakdown. Still not anywhere near what Weir is claiming, but it might be a start to see how the combination and processing of materials can have a synergistic results.

And to the question of “how Richard Weir and Carl Nelson stumbled across this apparent solution prior to the papers you listed,” your answer seems to be plausible. My impression is that most of the research in these areas relate to high K gate dielectrics.

Well, below are some articles that discuss the dielectric properties of BTZ. See if anything makes any sense whatsoever. I certainly can be way off the mark.

Other’s, feel free to flame away. I’m crawling back under the bridge awaiting some more goats.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119363515/abstract

Journal of the American Ceramic Society
Volume 73 Issue 3, Pages 700 - 706
Published Online: 8 Mar 2005

Dielectric Properties of Fluxed Barium Titanate Ceramics with Zirconia Additions
Timothy R. Armstrong, 1 * Karrie A. Young, 1 * Relva C. Buchanan 1
1 Department of Materials Science and Engineering, University of Illinois, Urbana, Illinois 61801

*Member, American Ceramic Society.

Office of Naval Research under Contract No. N-00014-80-K-0969 and in part by the National Science Foundation under MRL Grant DMR-86-12860. Microchemical analysis was carried out in the Center for Microanalysis of Materials at the University of Illinois, which is supported by the U.S. Department of Energy under Contract No. DE-AC-02-76ER-01198.

R. McSweeney—contributing editor

Copyright 1990 by The American Ceramic Society, Inc.
KEYWORDS
barium titanate • dielectric properties • zirconia • sintering • fluxes
ABSTRACT
BaTiO3 compacts, when fluxed with <2 vol% of a complex borate glass phase, were sintered to near theoretical density at temperatures <1175°C in 2 h. Microstructural analysis showed a uniform grain size <1.0 μm with 0.75 wt% ZrO2 added to the flux phase as a grain growth inhibitor. TEM analysis revealed a microcrystalline grain-boundary phase with the ZrO2 resident along the grain boundaries. These samples displayed an essentially flat dielectric profile, low dissipation factors (<2%) over the range 25° to 125°C, a near linear dependence (≅±15%) between 25° and −55°C, and significantly increased voltage stability. X-ray diffraction analyss of these small-grained materials indicated a suppression of the tetragonal structure toward a more cubic modification.


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http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0022-3727/39/6/029/d6_6_029.pdf?request-id=53744beb-a17a-4aa8-addb-2f4286c30d90

INSTITUTE OF PHYSICS PUBLISHING JOURNAL OF PHYSICS D: APPLIED PHYSICS
J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys. 39 (2006) 1204–1210 doi:10.1088/0022-3727/39/6/029
Relaxor properties of sputtered Ba(Ti,Zr)O3 thin films
V Reymond, O Bidault, D Michau, M Maglione and S Payan
ICMCB-CNRS, Universit´e Bordeaux 1, 87 avenue Dr Schweitzer, 33608 Pessac cedex,
France
Received 9 December 2005, in final form 12 January 2006
Published 3 March 2006
Online at stacks.iop.org/JPhysD/39/1204
Abstract
Thin films of Ba(Ti,Zr)O3 containing about 65% Zr have been grown using
rf magnetron sputtering with various substrate temperatures (500–700 ◦C).
All of them display ferroelectric relaxor features at low temperature
(T <200 K), namely a frequency dependent maximum of the dielectric
permittivity and dispersion on the low temperature side of the peak. This is
the first time that such a behaviour has been evidenced in lead-free sputtered
thin films.
1. Introduction
Perovskite ABO3 thin films have been widely investigated as
potential materials for application in microelectronic devices
such as dynamic random access memories [1], infrared
detectors and filters [2]. The film properties are strongly
dependent on the deposition parameters, on the interfaces and
on the specific microstructure resulting from the substrate
stresses and from the growth process. Because of their
high dielectric permittivity and low leakage current, extensive
studies have been made to investigate BaTi1−xZrxO3 (BTZ)
thin films using spin-on coating of sol–gel solution [3, 4]
MOCVD [5], a hydrothermal method [6] or, for the growth of
low Zr-content films a physical vapour deposition technique
[7–9]. Upon the gradual replacement of Ti4+ by Zr4+ cations,
BTZ ceramics are known to have composition dependent
properties from normal ferroelectric behaviour (x < 0.1) to
relaxor-like character for x > 0.27 [10]. It is one of the few
systems that can be a relaxor without the presence of lead or
bismuth on the A site of the perovskite.



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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TXD-4KNKBY9-6&_user=4275&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=4275&md5=1310bb581b0a0bc2461722a7015bd241


Materials Science and Engineering: A
Volumes 438-440, 25 November 2006, Pages 198-201
Proceedings of the International Conference on Martensitic Transformations

Relaxor behaviors and tunability in BaZr(0.35)Ti(0.65)O3 ceramics

X.P. Jianga, b, , , M. Zenga, H.L.W. Chanb and C.L. Choyb

Department of Material Science and Engineering, Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute, Jingdezhen, 333001 Jiangxi, China bDepartment of Applied Physics and Materials Research Center, The Hong Kong Polytechnic University, Hong Kong, China
Received 19 May 2005; revised 4 January 2006; accepted 28 February 2006. Available online 17 August 2006.

Abstract
Barium zirconate titanate Ba(Zr0.35Ti0.65)O3 (BZT35) ceramics were prepared by solid state reaction. The diffuse phase transition of BZT35 ceramics was investigated. The temperature dependence of dielectric properties was measured in the frequency range from 100 Hz to 100 kHz. The broad dielectric anomaly accompanied with the shift of dielectric maximum toward a higher temperature with the increasing of frequency indicates the relaxor behaviors in the ceramic. The index of relaxation (γ) and the broadening parameter (Δ) were estimated from a linear fitting of the modified Curie–Weiss law. The value of γ = 1.91 and Δ = 44.9 K at 1 kHz indicates the strong relaxor nature. A remarkably good fitting to the Vogel–Fulcher relation further supports such a relaxor nature. High tenability obtained in BZT35 ceramics was investigated, which imply that the ceramic is promising materials for tunable capacitor applications.

Keywords: BaZr(0.35)Ti(0.65)O3; Dielectric properties; Diffuse phase transition; Tunability

[…]
1. Introduction
In recent years, much attention has been paid to relaxor mainly due to their interesting properties [1]. These materials have found a wide range of applications in various devices like microelectronic mechanical systems (MEMS), piezoelectric actuators, multilayer capacitors, and pyroelectric detectors [2]. Relaxor properties have been investigated in various lead-based system such as Pb(Mg1/3Nb2/3)O3, Pb(Sc1/2Nb1/2)O3, Pb(Sc1/2Ta1/2)O3, Pb(Zn1/3Nb2/3)O3, etc. Recently, lead-free alternative materials are increasingly in demand because of a great interest for environmental friendly applications. The change has successfully applied to the barium-based system [3] and [4]. Barium zirconate titanate (BaZrxTi1−xO3, abbreviated as BZT) solid solution has received much attention due to its excellent dielectric properties which exhibits a high dielectric permittivity and relatively lower dielectric loss. This kind of system is also of great interest because of its different characters of dielectric response. There have been a few reports on electrical properties in bulk BZT [5], [6] and [7]. It is known that the BZT ceramics have composition dependent properties. Normal ferroelectric behavior is observed for 0 < x < 0.10, while the x increases up to 27 at.% Zr, these ceramics show diffuse phase transition [8]. When the content Zr is more than 27 at.%, the ferroelectric behavior of the material changes to a relaxor-like character [8]. Consequently, zirconium substitution in BaTiO3 affects the transition temperatures: the phase transition temperature of rhombohedral-orthorhombic T1 and orthorhombic-tetragonal T2 is raised, whereas the tetragonal-cubic Tc phase transition is decreased. The three phase transition temperatures merged near room temperature for x > 0.15 [4], which shows a higher dielectric permittivity, coupled with higher piezoelectric, pyroelectric, and electrostrictive coefficients and thus the compositions are of great importance to a variety of device applications.

However, this high value of dielectric permittivity strongly depends on the overlap of the transition temperatures T1, T2, and Tc, the chemical homogeneity of the ceramics, and the stress in the material. The Zr atoms must be homogeneously integrated in the lattice structure throughout the material. Compositional fluctuations will lead to distribution of the phase transition temperature and hence to irreproducible and variable electromechanical properties. The presence of mechanical stress in the material also reduces the values of the property coefficients. In this paper, we reported the process of preparing by conventional ceramic technique. Detailed electrical property measurements to establish the ferroelectric relaxor nature of the BZT35 and tunability measurements to establish the usefulness of these ceramics are presented.


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Again, voltages no where near Weir’s, but an interesting phenomenon.

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=1655&DID=48926&DOC=FILE.PDF

Dielectric properties of BaTiO3–BaZrO3 ceramics under a
high electric field
T. Tsurumi,a) Y. Yamamoto, H. Kakemoto, and S. Wada
Department of Metallurgy and Ceramics Science, Graduate School of Science and Engineering,
Tokyo Institute of Technology, 2-12-1 Ookayama, Meguro, Tokyo 152-8552, Japan
H. Chazono and H. Kishi
R&D Materials Department, General R&D Laboratories, Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd., Haruna, Gunma
370-33, Japan
(Received 23 July 2001; accepted 9 January 2002)
Multilayered ceramic capacitors (MLCCs) with BaTiO3–BaZrO3 (BTZ) dielectric
layers were fabricated, and the dielectric permittivity of the BTZ layers with different
thicknesses in MLCCs was measured. The dielectric permittivity of the BTZ ceramic
disk was also measured under various ac electric fields. The variation in the dielectric
behaviors with the thickness of BTZ layers in MLCCs was explained by the ac-field
dependence of dielectric permittivity observed in the BTZ ceramic disk. The
ac-field dependence of dielectric permittivity of BTZ was markedly observed
below the temperature of a broad maximum in the dielectric permittivity versus
temperature (e versus T) curve. It was found that the temperature of the broad
maximum shifted to the low-temperature side and the peak shape became asymmetric
with increasing ac field. These changes in the dielectric properties under high ac fields
were explained by a model of relaxors with the concept of the formation of polar
microregions (PMRs) and the freezing of fluctuating dipoles in PMRs.

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jam said...

In summary, the ceramic they use is not

Ba_Ti_O3 -> k ~ 2,000

but

Ba_Ti_Ca_Nd_Y_Mn_Zr_W_O3 -> k ~ 20,000

as per Hansen (Phillips) patent.

The questions to answer are :
Can a single molecule of the ceramic survive a field of 300V/µm without breaking?
Is a grain (1µm) of the ceramic completely filled with this molecule?
Is the voltage breakdown of pure plastic (PET) greater than 300V/µm?
Does dielectric saturation becomes significant only above 300V/µm?

If yes to all of the above, then there is a chance to make this capacitor.There must be absolutely no voids in the final slab with almost no plastic in the vertical space between grains.

zawy said...

I see some discussion about the science, but here are the two problems that aren't being addressed:

1) CMBT can't have a surface charge that allows more 10 V/um unless there is electron movement.

2) The Al2O3 coating and PET matrix kills the overall permittivity down to be than k=500.

Quantum effects do not change either of the above.

larry said...

zawy, this means EESTOR lied about test results, their claims are impossible under any circumstances, we should all pack up and go home, and why is it you waste your time on this?

Marcus said...

larry, he never said that. My impression is that he means these are the points that we need to try and discuss, or come up with ideas! Perhaps Christine has some ideas specifically addressing this?

Satya51 said...

Zawy,
So, based on calculations, you are saying that the electrons must move for the energy to be stored as stated, and that looks difficult with an Al2O3 coating on the CMBT crystals?

If I am stating it right, then that is would be a good starting point, unless someone else sees a way around your calculations.

Marcus said...

That's what we mean by having fun trying to come up with possible solutions. We need to pin point the problems first.

jam said...

Note that I never mentioned the Alumina coating in my summary, it will never work with this coating.

zawy: How to you get your 10V/µm limit?

zawy said...

Satya, the capacitance and energy storage are separate issues unless they're doing something with the interface that wasn't mentioned in the patents.

I see Jam has the same perspective as I on the capacitance: it's impossible with 10 nm alpha-Al2O3 or even 3 nm unless there is an alpha-Al2O3 (aka corundum like ruby and sapphire) that has k>200 as a previous post of mine detailed.

I get < 10 V/um based on
V/um = 28,500*i*d/k
which is based on surface charge. 28,500 is a constant for a 4x4x4 cell and for letting the i and d of the dipole be in units i like (# electron charge and angstroms of the dipole). I let i=8 (4+ ion for Ti/Zr and 4+ for orbitals as a large overestimate) and d = 1 angstroms as another overestimate, and k=22,000. The large k forces a low V/um. A more realistic V/um is 1 which you might confirm with research. For i=8 and d=1, J/cc = 1,000 (10 times too low) using my other equation in my favorite units:
J/cc = 355,000*(i*d)^2 / 22,000

Note that someone found a whopping 34 J/cc which tells me they had a small k...34 times lower.

Note that k=22,000 is for uncoated CMBT.

I have not figured out how to use the two equations above if the electrons move. I can't figure how to use them to find how k might vary.

So then I'm stuck with knowing we need a material that requires 10 eV to remove 1 electron from 40% of the unit cells to get the 10,000 J/cc (CMBT by itself). And it needs to be an efficient (little heat generation) and reversible which y_po says it is not. This is the only solution I've found for how they might be able to store that much energy.

Surface charge is satisfied and k does not need to be lowered except at the surface.

Y_Po said...

zawy,
for the third time, electrons can't move in dielectrics farther than length of the cell. If the they do that means electric current and associated energy losses (heat and destruction of dielectric)

Matt said...

Zawy,

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities.

If the single crystals of BaTiO3 tend to polarize as a unit, effectively having only two polarization states, then they could exhibit a negative permittivity on average when surrounded by low-K material.

The overall permittivity of the composite dielectric would have to stay positive, but an effect like this might solve your problems 1 (since we would no longer be entirely dependent on surface charge) and 2.

Are there other (perhaps more plausible) ways in which negative permittivity effects might take place?

larry said...

some thoughts:
eestor claims they made a lab level capacitor module that has the permittivity claimed, stores the energy claimed, doesn't leak, etc. thousands of other scientists and engineers over many years have tried and failed. those on this blog will not discover the science eestor did before they tell us or before they admit failure, but it's fun trying and watching the efforts. eestor did what they said or faked the results.

does this mean they can mass produce the same product they made in the lab; no it might not.

they changed the formula to use alumina and pet and claim only slight negative impact; they tell the truth or lie.

from a novice; maybe the use of a bulk material "is" important; could it act like 10 separate 1 micron layers of cmbt with only the outer layer impacted by the coating?

beginning to catch on to the game here and it can be a fun mental exercise.

a question said...

I’ve pulled out this quote from the abstract below:

“Increasing the fraction of BaZrO3 revealed several effects, including an increase in unit cell dimensions, …”


J. Mater. Res., Vol. 20, No. 10, Oct 2005
Dielectric and microstructural properties of barium titanate zirconate thin films on copper substrates

J.F. Ihlefeld, J-P. Maria, W. Borland


Barium titanate zirconate, Ba(Ti1-xZrx)O3 (0 &les; x &les; 0.25), thin films were deposited via the chemical solution deposition (CSD) method directly on copper foils. The films were processed in a reductive atmosphere containing nitrogen, water vapor, and hydrogen gas at 900 °C to preserve the metallic copper substrate during crystallization. Increasing the fraction of BaZrO3 revealed several effects, including an increase in unit cell dimensions, a decrease in both the temperature and value of the maximum permittivity, as well as a decrease in the average grain size of the films. The decrease in the relative permittivity was attributed to a grain size effect as opposed to zirconium substitution. In film compositions containing 25 mol% BaZrO3, the permittivity below Tmax became dispersive, and the ferroelectric transitions became increasingly diffuse. These characteristics suggest relaxor-like behavior. The dielectric tunability of Ba(Ti1-xZrx)O3 was studied at room temperature and at Tmax for each composition. There was little variation in the tunability with measurement temperature; however compositions that were ferroelectric at room temperature saw a decrease in hysteresis at Tmax, and all compositions showed an increase in permittivity.



And from the text of the article:

“The substitution of zirconium for titanium
results in enlarged cell dimensions with the accepted
pseudocubic lattice constant values of 0.4183 and
0.4008 nm for BZ and BT, respectively.24 The observed
increase in cell dimensions is approximately linear with the
mole fraction of substituted zirconium. This continuous
increase in cell volume with the mole fraction of zirconium
suggests full incorporation of zirconium into the lattice.

But …

“The relative permittivity versus temperature response
curves are compared at 10 kHz for each composition in
Fig. 3. The phase transitions are diffuse in nature, with
second-order characteristics. Figure 4 shows a plot of the
temperature and value of the permittivity maximum versus
the composition. A decrease in maximum permittivity
is observed with zirconium substitution, and the temperature
of the ferroelectric anomaly decreases approximately
linearly with increasing mole percent BaZrO3.
This trend is slightly more exaggerated than that observed
by Verbitskaia et al.5 in bulk ceramic material;
however, the effect of fine, thin film grain size to broaden
the transition behavior must be considered.


I apologize if I missed that dimensional changes have already been considered in all of the speculation.

The phenomena of dielectric saturation is well known and not disputed. However, addressing the underlying “mechanism” might lead to some more fun things to discuss, and more questions. (The phenomenon of gravity is well understood and predictable, but its mechanism? ‘Tis a mystery. It seems dielectric saturation is understood, but maybe not as predictable. Testing, testing, testing.)

Dielectric saturation does seem to be effected by changes in material composition. The mechanism of this? Certainly not understood by me, but I’d like to hear some theories. Maybe from somebody who monkeys around with “stuff” to see if observations change with changing conditions. Bulk grain doesn't necessarily behave like fine film.

And I probably missed this, but just musing to myself, how exactly is the aluminum being used, covering grain or layer? And polarization also seems to be significant (according to the patent, and I take info from patents with “a grain of salt.”)

Okay, enough from me. Back under the bridge I go.

a question said...

Oops. Just one more. Some theories on the mechanism of the cell lattice increase. Now I’m down. Stick a fork in me.

American Physical Society Physical Review B, vol. 74, Issue 1,
Abstract Copyright:
(c) 2006: The
EXAFS study of lead-free relaxor ferroelectric BaTi1−xZrxO3 at the Zr K-edge
C. Laulh´e,1 F. Hippert,1 J. Kreisel,1, ∗ M. Maglione,2 A. Simon,2 J.L. Hazemann,3 and V. Nassif4

(Dated: February 6, 2008)
Extended X-ray absorption fine structure (EXAFS) experiments at the Zr K-edge were carried
out on perovskite relaxor ferroelectrics BaTi1−xZrxO3 (BTZ) (x = 0.25, 0.30, 0.35), and on BaZrO3
for comparison. Structural information up to 4.5 °A around the Zr atoms is obtained, revealing
that the local structure differs notably from the average Pm¯3m cubic structure deduced from X-ray
diffraction. In particular, our results show that the distance between Zr atoms and their first oxygen
neighbors is independent of the Zr substitution rate x and equal to that measured in BaZrO3, while
the X-ray cubic cell parameter increases linearly with x. Furthermore, we show that the Zr atoms
tend to segregate in Zr-rich regions. We propose that the relaxor behavior in BTZ is linked to
random elastic fields generated by this particular chemical arrangement, rather than to random
electric fields as is the case in most relaxors.
PACS numbers: 61.10.Ht, 77.80.-e, 77.22.Gm, 77.84.Dy
Keywords: relaxor ferroelectrics, EXAFS, perovskite compounds, local structure


“On one hand, the XRD measurements show that the unit
cell dimensions of BTZ samples follow the Vegard’s law,
i.e., the cell volume linearly increases from its value in
BaTiO3 (64.286 °A3) to that in BaZrO3 (73.665 °A3). In
the cubic relaxor samples, all the average distances then
linearly increase with the Zr substitution rate x. On the
other hand, the distances deduced from the EXAFS analysis
systematically exceed those expected in the average
structure and, with the exception of the Zr-Ba distance,
are found to be independent of x. Considering that EXAFS
probes the structure on a very local scale, the latter
observation is direct evidence that the local structure is
different from the average structure.
We have shown in Sec. IIID3 that Zr-atoms tend
to segregate in BTZ relaxors. The latter result is in
agreement with previous speculations based on Raman
scattering23. If we assume that the Zr-rich regions consist
of BaZrO3 spherical inclusions in a BaTiO3 matrix,
one can calculate the mean number of segregated atoms.
It is estimated to 27, 15, and 10 in BaTi0.65Zr0.35O3,
BaTi0.70Zr0.30O3, and BaTi0.75Zr0.25O3 respectively,
which corresponds to diameters of 14.1, 11.5, and 10.8 °A.

Bretspot said...

This might sound really dumb, but people keep saying that you cannot store more electrons in this amount of space unless the electrons are moving... What if, somehow they are. What if they somehow figured out how to get the electrons to cycle from one part of the device to the other, or in a circular pattern showhow. So, instead of electrons just "hanging out" everything just keeps flowing.

I just figured I'd throw that out there. :)

zawy said...

If electron movement can't help energy storage as y_po says, then the case is closed. We do not have anything else to discuss and it's time to remove all investment in Zenn stock. Who are you going to trust? y_po or lockheed martin/northrop grumman/KP?

To have the high surface charge, they would have to have internal dipoles inside each unit cell that are at least 10 times longer than the unit cell itself. If there is anything to it, there has to be electron movement, which y_po says is impossible if it is to have any benefit.

Then there is the capacitance issue which independently makes it "case closed".

Any useful technical discussion has to resolve the above, or show more experimental evidence that 10,000 J/cc is possible.

bretspot, y_po seems completely closed to the idea that the electrons can move in a beneficial manner.

Geofree said...

I thought this might be of some intrst :)

Aug 23, 2006
Nanopores store extra charge

Researchers at Drexel University, US, and Paul Sabatier University, France, have found that the capacitance of carbon supercapacitors increased with decreasing pore size for pores less than 1 nm across. The finding could have implications for tailoring supercapacitor structure for specific applications.
Prototype supercapacitor
Prototype supercapacitor

"[Our finding] reverses the thinking about how pore size is important for supercapacitors," said Yury Gogotsi of Drexel University. "Following this work, decreasing pores below 1 nm can lead to smaller, lighter, more powerful supercapacitor devices. It may also have implications for understanding ionic transport in narrow channels in many other systems, including cells in human bodies."

Supercapacitors (or electrical double layer capacitors) store charge by ion absorption over the surface of highly porous materials, in this case carbon. Supercapacitors typically have a capacitance of tens of farads per gram of material, compared with traditional dielectric capacitors, which generally have capacitances in the microfarad range. Their high storage capacity arises from the small separation (∼1 nm) between the charged ions and the carbon surface, and the large surface area of the carbon surface.

Until now, scientists had believed that the supercapacitor's pores must be larger than the electrolyte ion and its solvation shell in order to provide high capacitance and to minimize the time for energy discharge. But Gogotsi and colleagues John Chmiola and Gleb Yushin from Drexel and Patrice Simon, Cristelle Portet and Pierre-Louis Taberna from Paul Sabatier University have turned this thinking on its head. They tested the capacitance of carbon materials containing pores between 0.– 2.25 nm in diameter. For titanium-carbide-derived carbon with pores below 1 nm in diameter, decreasing the pore size increased the capacitance. For pores larger than 1 nm, increasing the pore size caused the capacitance to increase, in accordance with existing theory.

"Initial work was directed at following the prior precedent of increasing the pore size of the carbon materials and determining the effect on supercapacitor performance," said Gogotsi. "However, unlike in all previous studies, we had an advantage of using carbide-derived carbon, in which we could change the pores in a fairly broad range. When we realized that we could improve performance further by looking at the lower end of the pore size spectrum, into a range thought to be previously inaccessible, we knew that we had stumbled onto something very special."

The researchers believe that decreasing the pore size to less than twice the solvated ion size reduced normalized capacitance because "compact ion layers from adjacent pore walls impinged", reducing the area available for double layer formation.

But if the pore size approached the diameter of the ion, normalized capacitance increased by 100%. The scientists reckon that the solvation shell became distorted as the ion squeezed into the pore, so that the distance between the ion centre and the surface decreased, increasing capacitance. Using pores smaller than 1 nm increased volumetric capacitance from 55 F/cm3 to 80 F/cm3.

The researchers believe that it may be possible to tailor supercapacitor structure to the application – for example, using narrower pores to give high energy density but longer discharge time for applications such as hybrid electric vehicles, but using larger pores for pulse power applications. What's more, creating carbon materials with a large volume of short narrow pores might improve both energy and power characteristics.

"Current work in our lab is directed at maximizing the volume of pores that have a diameter below 1 nm, and shows the revolutionary performance gains that we believe this approach can yield," said Gogotsi. "Also, another push is testing in electrolyte systems that allow a larger voltage window to be utilized. By combining these approaches, we feel that next-generation supercapacitors will far outperform even the high values we presented in the Science paper."

The researchers reported their work in Sciencexpress.
About the author

Liz Kalaugher is editor of nanotechweb.org.

a question said...

Could the aluminum be annealed as an electrode layer (without voids) to cut down on voltage leakage? But the low processing temperatures of the manufacturing process mentioned in the patent … bothersome. Why try it then?

http://darwin.bth.rwth-aachen.de/opus3/volltexte/2006/1685/pdf/Halder_Sandip.pdf

From the dissertation of Sandip Halder. Preparation and characterization of barium-based perovskite dielectrics on different bottom electrodes by chemical solution deposition
Von der Fakultät für Georessourcen und Materialtechnik der Rheinisch -Westfälischen Technischen Hochschule Aachen zur Erlangung des akademischen Grades eines Doktors der Ingenieurwissenschaften genehmigte Dissertation vorgelegt von M.Sc.
04.08.2006

“Slower heating rates yielded films with columnar microstructures dictated by a single interface nucleation effect, whereas faster heating rates, allow less time for growth of the initially nucleated grains, display both heterogeneous and homogeneous nucleation.
…, films which were crystallized in the RTA with very high heating ramps (160oC/sec) were found to be non columnar.

And

“Figure 4.2.4: Dielectric constant versus frequency from 1kHz to 1MHz of the three different types of films. Columnar films have higher dielectric constant.

So, is that why the calcium? To keep it a low fired process?

Okay, okay, that’s all.

Marcus said...

For those wondering, I've deleted most of my comments above because I want to keep things positive. I did not mean to offend anyone, mainly just explain my perspective on Y_Po to counter some negativity. I inadvertently became a little negative myself...
I hope christine may have some thoughts to add to this theoretical discussion because it seems to have hit a bit of a wall.

wannew said...

Lensman

Zenn won't go broke for sure, but they will bottle neck EEStors ability to capture the market in short order giving time for competitors. Unless like you say, they just liscence, but what will they liscence drive trains, well I am sure quite a few companys are going to come out with as good or better drive trains. In wheel motors are comming soon, is that a drive train. So how does the CAP get into the best drive trains?

It seems like the only way Zenn will be able to hang on will be to become a CAP middle man with world rights, too much money for doing nothing, again I come back to seeing the deal breaking with that scenario.

larry said...

wannew
I'd think ZENN and eestor will have many options. Recently heard GM market value is about $6B, so either Z or E could buy GM for stock when they start flying, not unlike AOL buying TimeWarner. If EESTOR pans out, investors in either will get rich.

mrjerry said...

railgun article has some confusion here, the article reference bae systems, the comment references "Northrop Grumman, a few months back setup a contract with EEStor" but if you look at the specs, i swear eestor anti up as weirs said for future apps

"Around 72 megawatts (MW) of the vessel’s power can be used for propulsion"

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4231461.html

mrjerry said...

Weirs statement in tyler recent interview

http://tyler.blogware.com/
"i.e. there's a big focus here on developing military applications using the technology. He called what he's working on as "Manhattan II."

Now watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI

Any questions?

mrjerry said...

wannew - said
"Zenn won't go broke for sure, but they will bottle neck EEStors ability to capture the market in short order giving time for competitors. Unless like you say, they just liscence, but what will they liscence drive trains, well I am sure quite a few companys are going to come out with as good or better drive trains."


you have to understand the license agreement, if you want a mid size car with an eestor eesu, you have to go thru zenn, but zenn can't sell you the eesu without a drive train and eestor can't sell you the eesu for a car under 3100 pounds.
So do you think, a company want to use their own drive train and not zenn, what do you think will happen?

They will simply design the spec with their customer wanted and put their name on it. They won't even manufacture it..

Y_Po said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Y_Po said...


Any questions?

are these things are guided, if not then they are pretty useless for shooting moving targets.

Also, if I am not mistaken the main problem in railgun is not energy storage but rail itself.

jam said...

Just read a paper in :
J.Phys. D: Appl. Phys. 29 (1996) 253-258

"Optimization of energy storage density in ceramic capacitors", N H Fletcher, A.D. Hilton , B W ricketts

They said they got up to 100 V/µm , with 8 J/cc but without mentioning the dielectric constsnt.
One-third of the way for dielectric strength.

mrjerry said...

just thinking:
estor in hybrids, no likely would you pay 10k more for the same car, signficant more maintenance, knowing their you be able to recharge at a recharge station coming out in every town within 4 years.

once you buy your first zenn car with eesu, and then you buy your next one, do you take the eesu from your old car and put it in your next car? how much of a discount would you get?

will the first zenn lsv be bought for the 15k eesu and you throw the car away, and sell the eesu on ebay?

when the first announcement of the cityzenn comes out will you go to the dealer and order the car the first day, sell your rights to someone else and make 5k?

If eesu lives up to the expectations, will we remove all polluting power plants.

Will there be ships that go out to sea and return with wind power energy and offload it at eestor collection facility and go back out to sea.

Once you have eestor in full production, is there any need for hydrogen?

you see storage changes everything

mrjerry said...

y_po said
these things are guided, if not then they are pretty useless for shooting moving targets.

Also, if I am not mistaken the main problem in railgun is not energy storage but rail itself.

talk to me in 2020.. oh, i know y_po "eestor will deliver late in 2021, thought i save you a post.

Lensman said...

Geofree quoted...

"[Our finding] reverses the thinking about how pore size is important for supercapacitors," said Yury Gogotsi of Drexel University. "Following this work, decreasing pores below 1 nm can lead to smaller, lighter, more powerful supercapacitor devices.
[snip]
...if the pore size approached the diameter of the ion, normalized capacitance increased by 100%.


WOW! That's quite a find alright, Geofree. I'm anxiously awaiting to hear what y_po has to say about that, because this is precisely the sort of thing I meant when I said EEstor may be using different assumptions than others working in the supercapacitor field.

- - - - - - - - - - -

wannew said...

Zenn won't go broke for sure, but they will bottle neck EEStors ability to capture the market in short order giving time for competitors. Unless like you say, they just liscence, but what will they liscence drive trains

Sorry wannew; you obviously didn't get the point I was making, about IBM making nothing but the nameplate that says "IBM" on the IBM PC.

But mrjerry got it. ZENN Motors can just make a sticker that says "ZENNergy" to go on the power train the other company is making. They have an exclusive right to *licence* the EESU technology-- that doesn't mean they have to *make* anything.

There will be no bottleneck by ZENN Motors, unless ZENN choses for there to be one.

And EEstor is talking about setting up EESU production lines inside other companies' manufacturing plants, so it's not like EEstor wants to do all the manufacturing themselves.

- - - - - - - - - - -

mrjerry asked...

Once you have eestor in full production, is there any need for hydrogen?

Not for cars or fuel cells, no. Hydrogen is not an energy *source*, it's an energy *storage* material. So is the EESU, and the EESU-- if it works as advertises-- will be a much more efficient way to store energy.

zawy said...

Jam, they ramp the V/um to near breakdown. For most of the V/um increase, the k is dropping linearly and the J/cc is going up by the same factor. Their k was probably around 200. My comment that EEStor can't go above 10 V/um is based on their k=22,000 and not experiencing dielectric saturation, as stated on item 12 of the world patent on the last page.

Generic said...

I may have missed it among all these blog posts' comments, but has anyone done the "calculations" for the compounds other than BaTiO3 mentioned in the various posts? I understand that if it's never been explicitly stated what the "doped" compound is, it will not be easy or even possible to do so.

However, It makes no sense to me why the properties of BaTiO3 have been harped on for so long while any mention of what EESTOR may actually be using goes unanswered/ignored.

Honestly, how many advances in the electronics industry have been made because of doped materials clearing road blocks once thought impossible to pass by the technology/process of the day?

zawy said...

Everytime I say "CMBT, I am referring to EEstor's "BT". I'm sure the modified composition will still have approx 4x4x4 angstrom cells upon which my equations are based.

Jam's statement gave me the idea of checking my equations against experimental data and i found an error in what i was typing here. It didn't make much of a difference to my comments, but it resolved an inconsistency between my equations and y_po's comments. Corrected equations:

max J/cc = 3,500*(i*L)^2/k
max V/um = 28,200*i*L/k

where
k = dielectric constant
i*L = dipole moment
i = number of equal and opposite pairs of electron-equivalent charges (like the ion number) which is presumably 4 for Titanium/oxygen pairs.
L= distance between the dipole pair in angstroms. It's the distance the Ti+4 (or Zr+4) is moved out of equilibrium equilibrium.

i*L is really a sum of several dipoles in each unit cell like the electron orbitals and titanium movement. I like to think of it as only a single dipole like Ti movement, but give a larger charge to the Ti+4 like 8 instead of 4 to account for the electron orbitals.

For EEStor's data to make sense there would have to be a dipole moment of 250 ion*angstroms for each unit cell. That's the equivalent of 250 electron charges moving 1 angstrom, half the distance between ions, which i believe is impossible both for the number of electrons and the distance. Stated another way, that's 25 electron charges (more possible for me to believe) per unit cell moving 5 times past it's nearest neighboring ion (absolutely impossible without electron movement).

Each unit cell shares O and Ba, so that a unit cell averages 1 molecule of (Ba/CA)+(Ti/Zr)+3O. So the number of electrons and ions moving is limited.

zawy said...

To answer someone's question earlier: i waste my time on this because I can't believe KP/Lockheed/Northrop were all fooled with something so basic that people like y_po can simply look at it with a simple calculation and show it to be impossible. I am curious at how it will turn out. In contradiction to the science, I am still invested in Zenn, which is why i am here and working very hard to find excuses for a way EEStor can work.

larry said...

zawy, others,
focusing on the bottom line, do your calcs allow them to reach 1.7MJ/cc (i think that's the no.)

zawy said...

It's 1.7 J/kg or 10,000 J/cc. My statements above are based on 10,000 J/cc, k=18,000 and V/um=350. Based on these numbers and my calculations, it is impossible if there is no charge movement. If they found a material with k=2 and it could withstand 100 times more voltage/um, then it's for the dipoles to stay within the unit cell and to have enough surface charge. But there is no such material reported. k is always < 500 for high energy storage from the research i've seen.

I had earlier stated that northrop gruman had measured high J/cc, but now looking over it again, i see they only measured high V/um in example one.

The key thing to remember if you want to find an excuse for EEStor is this: EEStor's data makes no sense without electron movement which y_po says is impossible if it is to be beneficial because electron movement would generate heat. If you want to find a way to convince me, prove y_po wrong and find a semiconductor that requires about 10 eV to liberate an electron without generating more heat than 0.5 eV after moving through 50 angstroms of a semiconductor.

drmatsci said...

I was wondering something - in DC current, electrons only need to flow to 'power' something, right?

Now it seems to me it would always be easier to jam more electrons into a space to make a 'negative' charge, so that when needed, the charge flows off through your device and to ground, correct?

What about creating a postitive charge instead, that is, to drive out all the electrons in your battery or EESU? When connected, it will want to pull electons in to itself and that should still power your devices, right? I imagine though its easier to build negative charge, but everyone here seems to say you can't build enough charge without it breaking down.

Just curious.

drmatsci said...

My other question - everyone has been using the math for capcitors. What if we wanted to calculate the energy stored in a battery, say an advanced Li battery, what would the math look like?

What if the EEstor product isn't really a capacitor at all, but more like dry polymeric battery? I can't think of a better way to throw off any possible competition than to keep them down the wrong path. OR simply that for this device, it acts more like a battery than a capacitor mathmatically. Besides, at a quantom level, the probability for an electron to tunnel or jump is pretty high, s who says you can't create a quantum 'flow' like a battery?

larry said...

drmatsci, guess i always thought this was a closed system, with say +1750v to -1750v. how would you go to ground in a car? thru the tires? seems like sparks would fly.

wannew said...

Lensman

Yep you are correct the only route Zenn can really go is to just sticker the technology and pass it through. I said that is one of the two ways they can go, I did get your point with the IBM reference.

What I said is, that once its obvious that Zenn is really only able to put a sticker on the drive train or systems that propel vehicles in their agreed space with EESTOR...that the deal will get broke. The difference with IBM may have been how the technology is implemented. Here we have a black box "the cap" and it is supposed to revolutionize the world, and we have a company that says it has rights as to how that black box can be fully exploited in a specific space. Guaranteed, when the cap is produced there will be major innovations in how that cap gets exploited for its energy use. A significant amount of that innovation will be in the space that Zenn thinks it has rights to, EEStor would be foolish to let ZENN control the innovation of how the cap is used in that space. So ZENN gets relegated to what? They can’t stop someone from coming out with a much better drive system than ZENN, less the CAP. So how is that dealt with? Is ZENN supposed to go into the completions factory and certify their drive systems?

In the end Zenn will be viewed as deserving of some royalty money. and that royalty will be negotiated early on, that will be the end of the agreement as it is now.

wannew said...

mrjerry

Ultimatly the CAP will be boxed up by some innovators as a buffer at the resident. It will be smart and accpept power from the grid when its cheap. You will be able to quick charge your mobile cap from that as well.

Others will if Zenn gets in the way, make retro fits for competing EV's that will let you take the CAP out of a "ZENN system" (retro i guess would be the cheapest)

larry said...

wannew, lensman,
with 6+% of EESTOR, ZENN stock will be high enough to buy GM or Ford for stock, or merge with a controlling share.

larry said...

thoughts on value of ZENN, EESTOR.
after C$15M infusion Z book value about U$20M excluding capital in E.
Z market value about U$170M.
Z never had profit and tenuous future without E, so value x-E no more than book.
market puts value of Z 3.8% stake in E at U$150M.
divide and get full E value U$4B.
Not bad for a garage full of ???
I can understand the market not running up Z stock until they "do" have 6+% of a $100B+ co.

jam said...

For zawy and other braves


"arxiv"

This goes deep into ferroelectric crystal analysis.

zawy said...

Excellent find Jam. It seems to say there are some charges floating around against y_po and in favor of large polarization. The paper is 10 years old.

"These transfers
of charge will propagate all along the chain, so that even if the net charge on the atom is not modified, a current of
electrons will be associated to the atomic displacement. The direction of this electronic current is opposite to that of
the displacement of positive atoms, so that it reinforces the change of polarization associated to this displacement and
may generate an anomalously large dynamical charge.

zawy said...

I was looking for 10 eV from 40% of the CMBT. A table in jam's link shows over 5 eV in the 3d of 100% of the Ti. Basically the ionic bonds are partially covalent and that's the source of moving charges along the chain.

Marcus said...

Yes, good find Jam.

Matt said...

Zawy, have you discovered the Bruggeman mixing rule for dielectrics, yet?

larry said...

sme's
interesting reading from the eestor patent.
cmbt is coated with 100A of pet and 100A of alumina.
component capacitors 10 micron thick were tested and dielectric saturation occurred above 5000v.
at least they say they observed saturation back in 2005 and it was not a problem at rated voltage.

Matt said...

Larry, Zenn's perceived value isn't just their 3.8% stake in EEstore. Much of it is the exclusive licensing agreement. If EEstor pans out, then it's not going to take a lot of work for Zenn to turn that agreement into a enough earnings to support a much higher share price.

zawy said...

Matt, if figure 1a in this link applies to our case as well as i think it does, then that would explain the solution to the capacitance problem. Maybe series capacitance doesn't apply for some reason like lack of metal plates between capacitors.