Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Richard Weir Says Permittivity is Subset of Purity, Prototypes built/tested

I just spoke via phone with Dick Weir for about 5 minutes. It was a very typical conversation in the sense that he was at times jovial and others mildly irritated with me. I could tell he was determined not to let the conversation stray from simply commenting on the press release, to explain what's in there.

Blogger: some people are wondering if your use of the term "milestone" in the press release relates to investment payments or investment milestones.

RW: No. Milestones of production and chemical purity.

Blogger: Why would you issue a press release on something related to purity prior to permittivity?

RW: It all leads to that. Everything we got there is the holy grail of everything we've worked for here. Permittivity, it seems to me people overconcentrate on it. Permittivity is a subset of getting these. If you dont get these, you dont get the permittivity. If you
get these, you get the permittivity and you can set it up at very high levels. This allows us to meet present specifications but more importantly or equally, it's the pathway for future advancement. In 2007, we made a conscious corporate decision to put in our advanced technologies. Of course, thats going to take a little longer! But we did that with very good reasoning behind it. As it states there, there are some mission critical programs out there that we wanted make sure that we could meet. Now what we had (prior to our advanced technology) could certainly meet alot of the programs. Putting our advanced technologies in place...this is why we are so happy.....because this shows the success of our advanced technologies. "

Blogger: Does that mean from a production standpoint that....

(interrupting)
RW: We were [funded].....say this on the blog.....we were [funded] to put a production line in. So what we are putting in here is a production line. (production said slowly and with emphasis)

(note: Weir said "invested in" but probably reads better as "funded"?)

Blogger: Not a lab?

RW: No, we've already done all the R&D and preproduction on this a long time ago. Now our [funding is] to put a production line in. This press release was put out to tell the people of our production successes that we have had.

Blogger: I hate to bring this up because I feel like I'm pretty clear on the information that's out there in regards to what you're saying about production. But still, alot of people still think that you haven't even got a prototype.

RW: We've have made prototypes of this and those have....they were made with technologies that we had at the time. And what I'm telling the people today is in 2007 we made a corporate decision to put in more advanced technologies which we now and this data shows that we hit a home run on these technologies. Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested.

Blogger: tested by 3rd parties?

RW: I'm just going to say that. They've been tested and the data has been reviewed by a lot of people.

Blogger: are you following any of the discussions on the web?

RW: [scoffing] I dont follow any discussions. I get to work, get my ass to work and get things done around here. What people say has no meaning to me. What we put out there I thought was dynamite and go from there. Anyway, that's all I can say. Thank you very much.

Blogger: .....one last question, people want to know if Moore's Law.... [phone click]

Thoughts? What's my take? I think someone smarter than me should piece this together. On the one hand, we have all the skeptics beating the permittivity drum with Weir saying essentially that he's focused on production issues not lab or R&D issues. You be the judge.

103 comments:

steve said...

Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested.

Richard Weir

steve said...

I would not want to be short ZNN right now.

Marcus said...

Permittivity, it seems to me people overconcentrate on it. Permittivity is a subset of getting these. If you dont get these, you dont get the permittivity. If you
get these, you get the permittivity and you can set it up at very high levels.

He's clearly not attempting to address the main concern of experts. In fact he seems to be avoiding it somewhat. A little disappointing.

steve said...

Oh God, it's a beautiful day in Austin, Texas. Permittivity shmermitivvity... blah blah blah.

This game is over. Cover your positions if you're short and come to the light.

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Kramer said...

It seems the market knows about this blogger but isn't taking his comments as seriously as previously.

Credibility issues - too convenient that Weir appears out of the woodwork when the press releaase is not received positively.

ZNN is down 3% on huge volume - 300k vs, 125k avg.

Yes, I am just an enthusiastic EESTOR follower who has a bit of ZNN stock - but not enough to color my thinking.

Despite this, I'm likely to check this blog daily, though I'll read it with a bit more skepticism.

Jay said...

"This allows us to meet present specifications but more importantly or equally, it's the pathway for future advancement"

I wonder what he means by this statement, what kinds of energy density can they acheive besides what has already been announced??

zawy said...

I like the comment on the prototype. Sounds great. Everything else was useless. Glad i didn't sell zenn today. b, next time you talk to him, ask "How is the aluminum oxide coating not reducing permittivity?"

ricinro said...

"As it states there, there are some mission critical programs out there that we wanted make sure that we could meet."

"In 2007, we made a conscious corporate decision to put in our advanced technologies."

This could imply that eestor needed to improve the eesu because, and consider the timing, of LM. Military specifications require greater factor of safety especially if worn by our troops. Also there may be a future application that requires more ooomf. They may also have received some upfront funding from LM to pay for the advanced production line. Dick Weir thinks the big story is the production line because that ultimately is what will produce billions of EESUs as well as the premium EESUs that he will sell to the military to help fund his production line factory.
How can I buy into or work at a EESU production line in my home town?

OntarioSeconder said...

It has always been about the purity of the dielectric powder. The purer it is the higher the permittivity.

EEStors founders were at the right place and at the right time to use their manufacturing knowledge of microlayering processes.

Earlier in your blog someome mentioned that in touring the EEStor production facility, they got to see all of the production line except the printer (microlayering equipment).

So the next step I would think is for the production line and resultant product to be third party varified.

ricinro said...

I do have a nagging question that perhaps someone out there could answer;

It appears that eestor has been given less than 10 million by investors. There may be some secret investors and money put up front that has not been reported.
The cost of developing the prototype factory, paying employess etc. seems to exceed the funding they have received given the years they have been working on this.
The last aerial photo I looked at showed nearly 40 cars and five large buildings.
I would expect that they have spent 10s of millions on development to this point.
What am I missing?

Marcus said...

zawy, you know I think you should try the direct approach. I emailed them using the address on the press release this morning and they were very quick to reply. Your best chance is if you frame your question as much as you can with relevance to the press release.
There isn't much to loose. Please let us know the result.

Jay said...

I noticed how he emphasized the funding is to build a production line. The permitivity measurments probably have to come from production units to receive additional funding.

"We were [funded].....say this on the blog.....we were [funded] to put a production line in. So what we are putting in here is a production line. (production said slowly and with emphasis)"

b said...

bob kramer,

thanks for sharing your views about credibility. Yes, read this blog with skepticism--good idea. It's a good opportunity to point out that the blog is set up to allow discussion and disagreement so that the overall effect of the blog on any careful reader is thoughtful consideration of what's known, not known and guessed at. if you're looking for a higher standard of journalism, try Tyler Hamilton's work or pick up the phone and do your own due diligence as is your right. I've said it before, Im just an ordinary person like you trying to make sense of eestor. I'm glad you stopped by to voice your concern and encourage you to continue doing so.

OntarioInvestor said...

test.

richterm said...

Pretty sweet interview B. Very little room for wiggle here. They've done all the pre-production stuff including prototypes, and now their finalizing the pro-duct-ion liiiine.

We've reached the point where unless you believe Richard Weir to be a liar ans scammer, they have created a prototype that overcomes all of the technical hurdles that have been discussed. Exactly how? Maybe someday we'll know.

Now the only (and formidable) obstacle is creating millions of these things on a production line. That's what these milestone announcements have been all about all along - not whether they ever got one unit working.

Who knows, maybe they could still fail at mass production. But I'm feeling pretty good about the probability for success right now.

whatsyourevidence said...

I told you so. At 9:30 this morning.

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/07/zenn-announces.html?showComment=1217435400000#c992135576318652382

Confirmed. My analytical powers are on fire. Time to trust evidence and intuition and go buy more Zenn. While it's still affordable. :)

Moomipappa said...

What is the legal situation when the CEO of a company knowingly provides false information that he knows can affect certain stock prices?

The reason I ask is that Weir here clearly states that permittivity is in the bag. He says unambiguously if you get A, you get B and we have A. (where A is the purity of ingedients and B is permittivity).

So, we have options:

a) Weir is confused. Having A does not guarantee B.
b) Weir is lying on purpose for whatever reason.
c) Weir is telling the truth and passing the permattivity milestone is a formality.
d) The interview is made up.

The probability of each of these depends lot on whether Weir is doing soemthing illegal by lying. If it's not illegal to lie he could just be being loose with language or be being knowingly deceptive. If it is illegal, (c) or (d) is almost certainly the case.

Matt said...

I wonder how they're doing with their patents? I'd hate to think that we're waiting on bureaucrats.

Satya51 said...

To trot out prototypes in a car would be like Altair Nano. We know what those prototypes tell you. The production line is everything, and Weir says the exact fabricated chemical, purity, crystalization, particle size distribution is everything, and has been third partied.

So, what, you guys want a tour or something?

ricinro said...

Satya51 said...

So, what, you guys want a tour or something?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure! where do we sign up! But now it seems that we get to move on to other topics such as:
The control electronics.
How the cells are arranged and stacked and if the production line allows form variation of the EESU.
Are there plans to have thin EESU tiles with PVs attached so I can replace my Mexican tiles with Texan tiles. Can the EESU/PV coupled device be shaped like a flying wing for a personal 'bat wing' device so I can fly to work (or recon forces can get where they need to be and escape a few days later).

Satya51 said...

I like the fact that they are building the production facility in the US and not China (even though the raw chemicals may come from China!).

I am trying my best to not start sounding like steve at this point. (its just that I don't want to be redundant.)

Manthan said...

((((headache))))

Masher said...

Having followed this blog and discussion for awhile now, I have a lot more faith in Eestor than I do in Zenn.

I have a hard time believing that Zenn will be able to make good on their promise to have a functioning car in late 2009. The best they can come up with now is a poorly built little electric car. (see Kelly Blue Book Review)

Even if Eestor comes through, I don't see how Zenn can supply the world with the drive systems necessary to electrify the auto industry. They just don't have the production capabilities to make good. Hopefully, they sell out to a larger company that can make good on their potential.

paulcummings55 said...

Ricinro said "The last aerial photo I looked at showed nearly 40 cars and five large buildings..." - this is the problem with Google Earth aerials;-) I live a few miles down the road, and the five buildings there contain 49 businesses- EESTOR only has a portion of one building, so I would imagine that the staff there is still very small;-) Their address there is 715 Discovey Blvd, Bldg I, #107- so, lots of other suites as you can see by the Postal Address.

mimic34 said...

so mr. weir says there are working prototypes and permittivity is not an issue and zenn stock goes down?

i took this opportunity to buy another 500 shares.

Jason said...

As far as everyone being excited about Zenn, it seems to me that even if EEStor makes the capacitor and delivers it on time, etc. The CityZenn is going to be their first highway-capable car. Right now all they've built is some glorified golf carts. Don't get me wrong, hey are really nice golf carts and I've seen one in person, but the safety features involved in a highway vehicle are much more involved.

What reason do we have to believe that Zenn can pull this off?

Anonymous said...

EEStor's Weir on ultracapacitor milestone
July 30, 2008 - Exclusive
By David Ehrlich, Cleantech Group
Similar

* EEStor claims third party verification
* Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car
* Lockheed Martin to use EEStor's ultracapacitors
* Zenn electric cars cleared for Canada
* Golden Dragon Bus to use Maxwell ultracapacitors

The stealthy energy storage developer's product is real and will meet specs, claimed passionate CEO Richard Weir in an exclusive interview.

Cedar Park, Texas-based ultracapacitor developer EEStor could be a step closer to shipping its first product, announcing the certification of production milestones and the enhancement of its chemical purification processes.

The secretive startup has made bold claims for the performance of its upcoming solid-state electrical energy storage unit, yet the company has some significant partners backing its claims, including Toronto-based electric vehicle maker Zenn Motor (TSX: ZNN), Silicon Valley's Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, and Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT), the world's No. 1 defense contractor.

Richard Weir, president and CEO of EEStor, told the Cleantech Group his company's certification announcement is significant.

"It certainly allows us to meet present specifications and major advances in energy storage in the future," he said. "It'll meet the voltage, we say that, it'll meet the polarization, saturation, we say that."

EEStor is developing an ultracapacitor which it said will be longer lasting, lighter, more powerful, and more environmentally friendly than current battery technologies.

Texas Research International, acting as an independent laboratory, certified the level of crystallization in EEStor's composition modified barium titanate, or CMBT, powders at an average of 99.92 percent. EEStor said this puts it on the path toward meeting its goals for energy storage.

The company expects its ceramic ultracapacitor, which it said uses no hazardous materials, to have a charging time of 3 to 6 minutes, with a discharge rate of only 0.02 percent over 30 days. EEStor said that compares to more than 3 hours to charge a lithium-ion battery and a discharge rate of 1 percent over 30 days.

"It's all certified," said Weir. "No bullshit in this."

EEStor's milestone comes on the same day that San Diego-based competitor Maxwell Technologies (Nasdaq: MXWL) announced a supply deal (see Golden Dragon Bus to use Maxwell ultracapacitors).

Maxwell shipped its Boostcap ultracapacitors to Xiamen, China's Golden Dragon Bus for use in diesel-electric hybrid buses in Hangzhou.

EEStor said the enhancement of its chemical purification processes is one of its most critical technical milestones, but EEStor has yet to release the results of permittivity testing, which will trigger the next milestone payment from Zenn. The automaker said permittivity is a measurement of how much energy can be stored in a material.

In a statement today, Zenn CEO Ian Clifford said the news "bodes well for EEStor's completion of its third party verified permittivity milestone and is a very strong affirmation of our investment in and the rapid progress of our business plan."

Zenn currently makes low-speed electric vehicles, shipping its first production vehicles in October 2006, but plans to roll out a highway-speed vehicle powered by EEStor's technology in the fall of 2009 (see Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car).

Zenn has already made three milestone payments to
EEStor totaling $1.3 million. Another $700,000 is payable after the permittivity testing, with a final $500,000 due
when EEStor ships its ultracapacitors.

Separately, Zenn also holds 3.8 percent of EEStor after investing $2.5 million in the ultracapacitor company in April 2007. After EEStor's permittivity milestone, Zenn has the option to boost its investment to a range of 6.2 to 10.5 percent.

In 2005, Kleiner Perkins invested a reported $3 million in EEStor. The percentage of Kleiner's stake has not been revealed.

"We were invested in to put in a high-volume production line. I think this says we've made some very major strides to completing that," said Weir.

"The plant is going in right now in Cedar Park as we speak. And then we'll, of course, we'll always expand from there."

Lockheed Martin announced its contract with EEStor in January, saying that it plans use the ultracapacitors for military and homeland security applications (see Lockheed Martin to use EEStor's ultracapacitors). The defense contractor did not release the financial terms of the deal.

Weir wouldn't disclose if EEStor is working with any other companies, saying only, "Once contracts are signed, I'm sure we'll have a news release on them."

EEStor's ultracapacitors were previously set to come out in 2007, but Zenn has since said that EEStor has committed to commercialization in 2008, with EEStor's first production line to be used to supply Zenn.

When asked for an update on that schedule, Weir said, "Good things should happen in a reasonable period of time."

Anonymous said...

It's all certified," said Weir. "No bullshit in this."

That sort a scares me as a salesman? Why would he mention BullShit.

Y_Po said...


He's clearly not attempting to address the main concern of experts. In fact he seems to be avoiding it somewhat. A little disappointing.

Yes, he is avoiding.

Y_Po said...


That sort a scares me as
a salesman? Why would he mention BullShit.

Because he knows he is full of it :)

Raki said...

Hey Jason,
If you believe Dick Weir's BS he had an operational EESU in a ZENN March of 2006. Back then the ZENN was known as a "Feel Good Car".

http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/29/1849708.html

“This is a very sophisticated electric car, with 250 to 300 miles of range,” Richard Weir, CEO, president and co-founder of EEStor said. “It’ll take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a regular car. Just plug it up for a few minutes and you’re off.” Many auto manufacturers experimented with electric cars in the 1980s and 1990s but essentially abandoned the technology for hybrid or other alternative fuel systems due to their high cost of manufacture and maintenance. Weir believes EEStor has overcome those hurdles with their product. “This is just a preview of what’s to come. We have another major announcement for May. But seeing is believing!” he said.

May? Major announcement? Oh, the suspense is killing me. If anybody out there in Cedar Park, Texas, managed to drop by for the open house and see these little electric vehicles in action, let me know what you saw -- and whether you believe. As mentioned before, Kleiner Perkins is behind them, so even if you find it difficult to believe it's something you simply can't ignore.

BTW: EEStor doesn't have a Web site yet but Weir has registered www.eestor.us -- so it's a matter of time before something appears."



Can anyone independently verify if there was an open house March 25, 2006 at EESTOR in Cedar Parks, Texas, and was there any operational vehicle powered by an EESU back in March 2006???

Tom Villars said...

jason,

ZENN Motor Company doesn't make the ZENN car. It is actually built by Microcar of France and shipped to Canada without and the standard diesel engine. ZENN then added an electric motor and battery pack.

The plan for selling the cityZENN is similar. ZENN will find an existing car manufacturer and then either have the ZENNergy drive train installed on site or they'll do it themselves.

Ian is going to play hardball with the big auto manufacturers. They either buy his ZENNergy drive train of slowly lose market share. The cityZENN is the proof they need him more than he needs them.

mimic34 said...

Y_Po,

your right he is avoiding the questions. He should just release all his blueprints and documents on how everything is put together so everyone can just steal the technology and he wont make a dime off all his years of hard work. yea, because we all know thats what you would do right? stfu

Anonymous said...

3rd party verified testing is for investors. EEStor is a private company whose investors seem to be quite happy with the results. Weir's answer will be to turn out working units by the thousands and you and I can test it by driving!

Y_Po said...


your right he is avoiding the questions. He should just release all his blueprints and documents on

Nobody asks for blueprints, and no expert has asked for this yet another set of BS they released.

Anonymous said...

I was only suggesting that the term "bullshit" used by the sales man is to push through the deal. Even if I was not clear on the facts, but believed in the product instead.

JerseyBoy said...

Am I wrong in deducing from Wier's comments that permittivity will be certified only once the final production units can be test to see if they meet energy storage parameters? You can't measure the storage capacity of a pile of MBT. So when they announce the permittivity results they should have a fully functional production unit ready to be tested with the third party electronics, then eventually on to ZENN for vehicle protoyping.

Tom Villars said...

JerseyBoy,

The full production unit will have a bi-directional buck boost converter which you presumably wouldn't need to certify permittivity.

But ZENN wouldn't need to prototype the car. The first units to roll off the production line are the 15 kWh ones which should be nearly plug and play compatible with the existing battery packs. Once EEStor starts shipping EESU equipped ZENNs should appear very quickly.

Schneibster said...

The full production unit will have a bi-directional buck boost converter which you presumably wouldn't need to certify permittivity.

Amusing. They're not using a boostbuck, aka Cuk, converter (for the curious, it's pronounced "chook" with a long double o). Cuk converters can be a bit more difficult to design, but they're much more efficient. You've mentioned this more than once; I'm curious. Where did you see it?

Tom Villars said...


In addition to a capacitor, Bergeron says EESUs also feature a great deal of power electronics. “Obviously, you have a lot of energy in there that wants to get out very quickly, so you have to have something that manages the energy,” he says. “Basically, you have a very large capacitor and you have a buck-boost converter at the simplest level. It’s a very simple concept, and that’s what’s so beautiful about it. It is the Holy Grail for engineers and EV’s—a stable energy source that has a lot of capacity.”

Jacò said...

Does anyone know what Weir's ethnic background / first language is?

The transcript of the interview (if accurate) shows the same disjointed, unintelligible mumbling as the press release. So, it is not quite clear to me if Weir is a bumbling idiot and/or con artist, or if he just has no command of English.

ricinro said...

paulcummings55 said...
Ricinro said "The last aerial photo I looked at showed nearly 40 cars and five large buildings..." -

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Thanks Paul.
This clears up many questions I have had.
"EESTOR only has a portion of one building, so I would imagine that the staff there is still very small;-) Their address there is 715 Discovey Blvd, Bldg I, #107- "

They have a small staff, are likely creating a small pro...duc...tion...liiiine device (funny!... thanks to an earlier poster) that is mostly purchased devices and some custom parts that are integrated. The process of coating BT with aluminum is vapor deposition?. an extruder to make the MBT tape, pressure vessels/oven to pressure cook, and the screen printing stuff? Then they need to assembly and interconnect all the components.
Sounds like this could be done rather compactly. Perhaps material is handled by robots so they did not need to develop time consuming hardware.

ricinro said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck-boost_converter

I am not too stong in electronics; the buck boost converter seems very simple yet provides what I would assume is a noisy output. This may be of little consequence with more sophisticated electronics. Electric cars and similar high load applications would require massive amounts of power to go through semiconductor devices. Are such devices common and robust?

mrjerry said...

To the experts scientist on this subject, any measurement you have on permittivity of weir's bullshit at the nano level, with averaging 99.57% pure, exhibit the same permittivity and dielectric saturation of a single micron vrs bulk bullshit.

sorry guys but i just couldn't resist...


"It's all certified," said Weir. "No bullshit in this."

Anonymous said...

This whole thing is bullshit, Weir is completely sidestepping the permittivity issue. Also, everything he says is very vague and non-scientific, he is way too irritable to be on the verge of producing a world-changing product here. If I, or anyone for that matter, happened to be very near completing a product that was going to revolutionize several industries and save America and engrave my name in the history books forever and rake in basically as much cash as I want, I would be in a good mood. I would be willing to talk calmly, I would not hang up a phone on someone because they asked me a question that ground my gears. In fact, nothing would grind my gears, all my troubles would be gone, I would be the kindest most well-spirited generous person in the world(I aspire to be like that anyway, but sitting on a mountain of cash helps.) This is a scam, I have no idea why they would go this far, but the eesu unit will never be produced. Mark my words.
-Duncan Aronstein

Anonymous said...

Eestor's prototypes have the revolutionary permittivity everyone is talking about or they wouldn't work. He told B "Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested."

But Weir also told B the production line achieved permittivity as well...

Everything we got there is the holy grail of everything we've worked for here...
Permittivity is a subset of getting these. If you dont get these, you dont get the permittivity."


Since he got "the holy grail" and perm is a subset thereof, then he must have permittivity as well.

Since he got "these" and

these = holy grail

then he achieved revolutionary permittivity on the production line as well.

Loved this bit on protoypes:

They've been tested and the data has been reviewed by a lot of people.

This was what Liebman meant by "their prototypes".

steve said...

I agree with the above comment... because I wrote it. Sorry B, forgot tot sign in.

Anonymous said...

"They've been tested and the data has been reviewed by a lot of people."
a)... and they don't work
b)he's lying about the testing
c)the "people" who reviewed them were completely unqualified and could have been kindergardeners.

Come on DICK, get a little less vague.

Anonymous said...

Hola! I work for a Cedar Park cleaning company and when I saw the address posted in this blog I recognized this building as one that I collect garbage from and clean/rince the bathrooms and from what I know there is only about 4 people with things at their desk and when I go there around 5:30 they are just on the phones allot. i doubt that anything scientific is gone on in their. I didn't see any flux capacitors or anything.

Anonymous said...

Richard Weir has zero credibility. LM has no real credibility either they are a defense contractor look at DARPA and the bullshit they try to push all the time. Military dollar are loose dollars.

Not only that but all LM is doing is offering limited help to EESTOR. Help, which EESTOR can decide it does not need and no one will be the wiser. LM gets something in exchange for being available as an outside consultant. So far EESTOR has not ask for anything.

Lots of people have reviewed the prototypes data in the world patent.

Business and science do not mix you may make it big trading ZENN but it clear to me that people are investing who are no idea what EESTOR has.

According to my sources, EESTOR has prototypes that are bases on new theories that Richard Weir has developed. Frankly the talk around the water cooler is that he is afraid to talk about EESTOR because he afraid that people will laugh at his theory’s, about why he thinks the EESTOR works. I think engineers make poor physicists. You always get them coming up with nutty stuff when they get old and senile.

Also go look at Blacklight and Steorn. Look at who invested in them especially Blacklight big name business people.

steve said...

Bottom line, you either believe that EEstor has "the holy grail"

or you believe it's all a conspiracy theory...

there's no middle ground anymore since Weir spoke yesterday.

place your bets accordingly. we know where KBPC, Lockheed Martin and Zenn have placed their bets.

Anonymous said...

Even if EESTOR does not work LM may still get something out of the relationship. Powder or something who knows :) LM is not even in is this race.


You can bet all you want the fact is you are just a dumb business person.

Anonymous said...

Steve, it appears the previous poster dampened your enthusiasm with some nice facts. I like how to referenced steorn and blacklight, this is exactly the same thing as those were, a scam. It is possible that Weir thought he had invented this device, or even still thinks it will work, but i GUARANTEE you this will not work ever. They will never produce a working finished product. This might drag on for another 5 years though.

steve said...

Frankly the talk around the water cooler is that he is afraid to talk about EESTOR because he afraid that people will laugh at his theory’s

"The water cooler"... that is too funny.

Ron for cover, shorty.

The guy who is allegedly to "afraid" to speak, just said he has "the holy grail".

The holy grail is in the PR if you know how to read it, not just the interview with B.

Anonymous said...

Everyone these days seem to have a holy grail. Shelby supercars: The drive train under development will feature a revolutionary power source allowing for extended time between charging intervals with the possibility of several years between charging. Powered by a 500 horsepower electric motor

See http://www.shelbysupercars.com/news-071208.php

Uhh, who's next, what's next? Teleportation?

steve said...

but i GUARANTEE you this will not work ever.

If you really believe that, then you must be shorting Zenn, right?

"GUARANTEE"? Wow, you are lucky to have that. See you on the cover of Forbes.

Anonymous said...

Weir said: "Permittivity, it seems to me people overconcentrate on it."

This obviously translates to: "No, we didn't succeed with permittivity"

Weir claimed: "Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested."

Why can't he tell, who has tested the prototypes and what the results were? The obvious answer: there are no prototypes at all.

Marcus said...

One thought on the scam hypothesis. How many scammers involve their family?

Marcus said...

Also, how many scammers spend their money on production facilities?

Y_Po said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Y_Po said...

Marcus,
You keep forgetting that it did not start as a scam. This is a scam in a sense that they know that they have nothing but continue this nonsense.

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marcus said...

Y_Po, glad to see you've joined us.

So you flat out don't believe his statement on the existence of a previous prototype? You think he would have got the funding for a production line without a prototype demonstration? Its possible but unlikely in my opinion.

Also, how about a comment on that explanation given in the wiki discussion section on the mixing of the PET, Alumina and BT? Its also posted at the end of the Randall post.

Marcus said...

Also, if he is continuing this nonsense now as a scam he is still involving at least his son and probably wife and perhaps other family members in it. Again unlikely in my opinion. Where would he see it all going? Seems to be leading know where good.

Y_Po said...


So you flat out don't believe his statement on the existence of a previous prototype?

Why would I disbelieve a prototype? I believe it 100%. It just was not working as advertised :)
maybe 1000-2000 times less energy density than they promised.

Y_Po said...


Also, how about a comment on that explanation given in the wiki discussion section on the mixing of the PET, Alumina and BT?

There is an explanation why coatings will reduce permittivity. That is correct, it will reduce permittivity. I don't what else I can say here.

Marcus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marcus said...

The explanation suggests a slight reduction in permittivity (a reduction apparently reported by EEStor) but not nearly the reduction that people thought would occur given an alternate layering of PET, Alumina and BT. The mismatch between EESTor's reported permittivity of this material and that estimated by critics has been one source of serious doubt about EESTors credibility. Correct?

Marcus said...

There is also this comment by Anon.

"My uneducated guess is that the barium titanate does break down, but the dialectric does not, because the electrons bunch up against one side of their alumina shells. Electrons move a lot farther in this model than they do when confined to a single atom, allowing greater energy storage."

Has this any validity Y_Po?

Y_Po said...

Are you saying that there is an explanation why coatings will have only small effect ?
I don't see it, can you point me towards it?

In any case I don't care much about this problem. Yes it is a serious question but it is not even close in importance to saturation. I myself can come up with few theories why it has no effect on k

Y_Po said...


"My uneducated guess is that the barium titanate does break down, but the dialectric does not, because the electrons bunch up against one side of their alumina shells. Electrons move a lot farther in this model than they do when confined to a single atom, allowing greater energy storage."

Has this any validity Y_Po?

looks like an absolute nonsense/gibberish

Moomipappa said...

zenn stock up 15% today.

Marcus said...

"Are you saying that there is an explanation why coatings will have only small effect ?

Yes

I don't see it, can you point me towards it?

See where we left off from our conversatoin with christine last night.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8489475285158529856&postID=3348429731884889485

also with some extra qualification at the bottom of the page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:EEStor

Marcus said...

Do you agree with the permittivity argument? Any implications for the saturation problem at all?

Y_Po said...


also with some extra qualification at the bottom of the page here

I see it now.
I am not an expert on ceramics. I simply assume that EEstor are gods and are able manufacture absolutely anything.
But what is the point of coating if it gets destroyed during manufacturing?
You have to understand that the whole idea of coating comes from the the same faulty logic as E=C/2*V^2

Y_Po said...


Do you agree with the permittivity argument? Any implications for the saturation problem at all?

You are asking me?
This is really is the only argument I repeat over and over again.

Marcus said...

Yes, I know!

aaron said...

Man alive people! Has anyone heard anything lately about the silicon nanowire battery? That sounds allot more promising than the product this dark arts/snake oil salesman is peddeling. 10x improvement in Lithuim battery is what Im talking about. I wish all of you wrapped up in this thing would branch out a little bit and focus your collective energies on that for just one week, you may be amazed.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html

b said...

hey y_po, if you want to write up a post summarizing your views, i will put it up as a post and let people comment on it. i would ask that you make a good attempt at breaking things down into laymen's terms if possible but obviously, that's not a strict requirement...it would at least help more people follow you.

erkyl said...

What an interesting group of people. Cheers to all. I'm one of those hoping EESTOR comes through, but here's my take on Weir. He's a crafty speaker. Here are the words we long to hear that he very deliberately does not speak: "Yes, we have working prototypes that are near our advertised specifications, but we needed to get the purity right in order to meet our current specs and be able to meet future more demanding specifications. At this point we are putting together our production lines, and, since purity equals permittivity, we feel certain that our production units will perform even better than our prototypes." But he never says anything about a working prototype. I think they are working on a production line because that's what their money is supposed to be used for and that they are following a parallel R&D path to get the thing to actually work. He never says they have one working. That bothers me. But I wish them well nonetheless.

Anonymous said...

@ aaron

[i]Has anyone heard anything lately about the silicon nanowire battery?[/i]

Yes, this is TRUE science and not scam like eestor's cheat!

My idea is that Kleiner Perkins and Lockheed Martin are involved in developing lthium batteries and are trying to keep other investors from investing into competing products. So the came up with this huge scam which, wehn it was true, would make all investments in lithium batteries for cars worthless.

And Zenn? Who is Zenn? They even don't produce electric car's by themselves. They buy parts in Europe and assemble cars in Canada. They don't have enough output to get wholesale prices! Zenn is trying to boost the value of it's shares. I believe that our anonymous blogger is one of the guys to benefit from a rise of Zenn's market value.

aaron said...

Anonymous, I agree that this is a plausible strategy for a business. Distraction is a powerful weapon. It would explain why no-one has come out of the woodwork, someone - anyone regarding the inner workings of such a revolutionary device as a capacitor. Only thing that bothers me is I have not heard anything about the silicon nanowire based battery in the last 6 months either. If the silicon nanowire battery is real, and the science seems there to back it up, the capacity seems to be allot greater than this capacitor and therfore more worthy of out attention.
-Aaron

Anonymous said...

Hey Aaron, go tell your buddy Yi Cui that he has a nice idea, but it's going to be a day late and a dollar short. Too bad, nice development that would have made him a millionaire if he came up with it 10 years ago. Every time he starts up his EESU powered car he can think about that.

Anonymous said...

"If the silicon nanowire battery is real, and the science seems there to back it up, the capacity seems to be allot greater than this capacitor and therfore more worthy of out "

EESUs will provide power at 1/10th of lead acid so even if nanowire works, it's just in the same ballpark. It will still take a long time to charge a nanowire battery.

aaron said...

Mr. Anonymous, as in the moderator, Im not sure if turning on anonymous posting is a good idea becuase I have no intelligable way to tell who I am responding to. Seems less productive. - But I digress...

I agree that silicon and eesu are in the same ballpark but one seems more feasable than the other. One seems less like snake oil. Yi, where are you buddy, come out of hiding! I dont understand the comments about if he had thought about this 10 years ago he would be somewhere. the nano-manufacturing techniques were not available then are are still emerging even as I write. There is great value in Yi's work and we need to investigate.

One more thing I'd like to add, dollars be dammed! I hold no financial stake in any energy storage company or anything else like that. I want to help somehow for the good of the country. We need a lift in the World and I for one think that anyone here posting things for the sake of willing their stocks up or down is deplorable. I dont know how I can help other than trying to find truth in chaos, so that is what I do for now....

These developments will happen at some point regardless of the shape they take. The exciting part is the journey there.

Marcus said...

This blog is suffering from a deficit of knowledgeable people. Yes, there is Y_Po but it would be much better if there were quit a few with at least his technical knowledge.

Its not only about the patents. Its whether it is theoretically impossible or not. As far as patents go though, they still reference the wipo patent in the press release so it should contain at least some relevant info.

Remember there are still bounds within physics that are incredibly unlikely to be broken. For instance faster than light travel. I want to know whether this scheme is in that class of problem or not. I can't get enough reliable answers.

richterm said...

marcus -

I don't really know if you're going to find what you're looking for on a blog. Yes, there seems to be an interesting discussion between people with some decent knowledge of physics. But really, are the leading experts in the field hanging around here? As someone said, does y_po have a job? (Is this his job?)

Perhaps you should seek out Prof Randall and other experts. I'm sure there are a bunch of different opinions among experts out there. Not too many are going on record with their name attached saying it's impossible though. They don't want to be remembered as the ones who said the world was flat. And even so, how can even an expert honestly evaluate it when they don't know what the approach is behind the scenes? Seems like an exercise in evaluating guesses to me.

richterm said...

"I want to help somehow for the good of the country."

Aaron - that's how many of us feel. Even those of us who have invested in Eestor through Zenn. The impact on my country/the world is more important to me than any money I hope to make.

So I am a little disturbed by your attitude toward Eestor. You can fairly have the opinion that things look shadey. However, what if Richard Weir is not full of shit? What if his product works as he says? Why don't you sound hopeful for that? If an EESU works as described, it accomplishes what you say you're hoping for. Its impact is greater than a lithium battery with improved capacity, though I'd think that would be great too.

Y_Po said...


Remember there are still bounds within physics that are incredibly unlikely to be broken. For instance faster than light travel. I want to know whether this scheme is in that class of problem or not.

I would be reluctant to put them in the same class but only only because speed of light is not obvious and fundamental thing which is not derived from anything, whereas dielectric saturation is completely obvious thing.

Marcus said...

richterm you may be right. In fact I just recommended to zawy that he contact Prof Randall with a bunch of his questions. Zawy is better qualified for such a discussion than I am.

mjtimber said...

For me personally, this is a very disheartening post. When Weir was being quite about the EESU, it seemed he was laying low. Why come out with this information now? It doesn't sound as though they are close to announcing anything. If you're going to give away this much, why not show off the prototypes? With all the questions about the material in question, he seems to be echoing what Steve would see as "proof" (though he's changed his tune a bit and realizes Weir might be lying). It seems like desperation. This saga is starting to remind me of 'Deep Water', a recent documentary. Hopefully, this won't come to a similar end.

Or maybe they actually have something. I just don't know. Being a materials engineer, there are lots of unexpected properties that materials can exhibit, and I wouldn't say anything's impossible. This would be close, however, as whatever dopant they are using for the composition modified barium titanate would have a lot of work to do. Still hoping for the best, but less hopeful. How about it, Richard? Give us a show and prove me wrong!

aaron said...

Why is honda not afraid to show off its prototypes? 1750 watts/kg!

http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/ultracapacitor/

Y_Po said...

mjtimber
Why? Short answer they don't have the prototype and i will add they never will.
Of course if you are believer there are a lot of conspiratological explanations to choose from.

mjtimber said...

Aaron,

1750 W/kg (power) isn't that big a deal. If they were advertising 1750 W-hours/kg (energy), that would be something.

Y_Po said...


Aaron,

1750 W/kg (power) isn't that big a deal. If they were advertising 1750 W-hours/kg (energy), that would be something.

It is not about W-hours (energy) it is about power. Hybrids need storage that can deliver and store energy at at high rate, this will make regenerative braking and acceleration much more efficient.
Batteries are not good at power.

aaron said...

Y_Po, I was just making the observation that when others have prototypes, they usually show them.

Y_Po said...

aaron,
I put your name by mistake, it was supposed to be reply to mjtimber.

mjtimber said...

Y_Po,

I realize that. But I read (or misread) the post as indicating that this was an advancement comparable to EEStor's claims, which it is not. Taking off a couple kilograms of capacitors won't make or break the electric/hybrid car.

Y_Po said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Y_Po said...


I realize that. But I read (or misread) the post as indicating that this was an advancement comparable to EEStor's claims, which it is not. Taking off a couple kilograms of capacitors won't make or break the electric/hybrid car.

No, it was about the fact that Honda is not afraid to show their prodcuct. Secondly it is advancement because it does in fact make hybrids better. And you can't compare EEstor to this because EEstor don't have any advancement to compare to.

mjtimber said...

Y_Po,

Is the previous email a contradiction to your own post or to mine? I was responding to your message, where you were discussing power versus energy, not the original post. Yes, that would be the correct response to the original, as Aaron has indicated himself.

aaron said...

I started a blog thread that I feel is necessasary. I guarantee that your comments will not get censored or modified. Please TRY to be nice and remember the goal of it is only finding truths. I will still be follwoing this site for discussion topics but I dont like the idea of all the comment deletions going on, In my mind, the blog looses credibility. Thanks,
Aaron


http://aaron-allaboutoil.blogspot.com/