Friday, July 11, 2008

More EEStor Information Coming

I hate to be a tease. But I've got alot of really good information coming in the next few days. Hopefully, I'll be able to get some of it out this weekend.  

24 comments:

Jonathan said...

I am convinced that you are actually Richard Weir.

nekote said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nekote said...

Pardon my horrendously crude and akward attempt to get this information out to the public.

I have resorted to posting the WIPO version of the EEstor ESU patent at:
http://nekote2.blogspot.com/2008/07/eestor-wipo-patentdoc.html

I wish I knew how to very much better format it (in particular the tables - really juicy nuts and bolts specifics!).

In addition, I also posted my impressions of this EEstor ESU invention at:
http://nekote2.blogspot.com/2008/07/impressions-of-eestor-ultra-capacitor.html

b said...

Nekote, Can you summarize what your two URL's are supposed to be communicating? I see a link to a world patent and then on your impressions page, you indicate you believe the EESU will blow up when discharged rapidly. Does that summarize your views on this? Is there something else you're trying to say?

Harvey said...

Building upon Jonathan's comment:
Most bloggers enjoy publicity. Why do you hide behind a veil of anonymity?

mrjerry said...

Nekote, this information has been out there for over a year, why are you so excited? We are waiting for one thing, permittivity results. You see no matter how great it all is, weir's geneous etc, in the end he has to be able to mass produce it, as I posted earlier in the week, one blogger knows of his work in the past, he also had great claims in the computer disk area, but could never get it to the production line. This is a very difficult process to perfect, it could be days, or years...

nekote said...

It is soo funny.

I only entertained the Blog solution as a method of last resort.

I've never blogged before.
I'm not after any attention or publicity.

Rather, I'm looking forward to further disussion regarding the technical details. Especially from those who say it is impossible. :)

I had not seen anybody else discover / publish anything about the WIPO stuff. I failed to interest the Candian Toronto Star (I think it was) newspaper guy to better open the door to that document. The raw document, because of the OCR scanning, is even more difficult that what I've tried to pretty up and make more readable / useable. Never did get the tables to look anything past barely comprehendible.

From the comparatively little I know, aside from the chance of it all being a totally made up fantasy / stock hoax, it looks like it will really happen.

As for 52 KWH blowing up - I can see where a bullet or a rod penetrating some hundreds of "chicklets" worth of capacitors is probably not going to be catastrophic.

My biggest worry is if aggregating ESU wide + and - terminals, such as on an ordinary (car) battery are accidentally shorted in an accident. I don't see how something amounting to a detonation can be avoided, as the shorting conductor vaporizes.

Actually, you *do* want all that energy more or less instantaneously, if you're powering, say, an (electromagnetic) rail gun. But then that's what everything would be built to handle.

*** NOT *** something you want, if you're in a vehicle that is having a severe accident. I'm guessing there are many multiple plus and minus terminals that would be highly unlikely to be able to accidentally simultaneously short out. But it is one technical item I'm looking forward to learning more about.

nekote said...

mrjerry, the reason for my excitement was it was the first definitive technical nuts and bolts info I've seen anybody put out or otherwise discover on the web.

All the rest of the plaver has been breathless speculation and hope.

The permitivitty results that seem are going to be announced "any day now", are supposed to be from a (disinterested) third party.

The infomation that EEStor published in the WIPO documents supposedly has their results - very much toward the end / bottom.

Supposedly, more than a year ago, their own permitivity testing (sampling results every 100,000 full charge / discharge cycles) for 1,000,000 cycles found everything holding, up as desired.

mrjerry said...

Nekote, yes when i read this about 6 months ago, I was very excited to, it went from abstract us patent to technical information including their permittivity results, in fact when eestor put out the news release on the purity of barium titanate the wipo backup their information
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/01/big_news_eestor.php

"It is anticipated that the relative permittivity of the current powder will-either meet and/or exceed 18,500, the previous level achieved when EEStor, Inc. produced prototype components using it engineering level processing equipment." Now you connected the release with the patent.

Now here is the wipo where they got the numbers from that you linked tot
The following data indicates the relativity permittivity of ten components measured at 85° C, then 85° C and 3500 V, and the last test 85° C and 5000 V. Components 850 C 85° C - 3500 V 85° C - 5000 V 1. 19,871 19,841 19,820 2. 19,895 19,866 19,848 3. 19,868 19,835 19,815 4. 19,845 19,818 19,801 5. 19,881 19,849 19,827 6. 19,856 19,828 19,806 7. 19,874 19,832 19,821 8. 19,869 19,836 19,824 9. 19,854 19,824 19,808 10. 19,877 19,841 19,814

mrjerry said...

One more thing, it pretty obvious that zenn,perkins,lockheed have all seen these prototype components, it's always been about getting it to mass production, and when you take 1,000s of layers and they must be defect free, you start to understand that complexity. Make a mistake, $2,000 out the window. We have been waiting for over 2 years since eestor has had these prototype components.
This is why you never see these prototype, because it's nothing unless you can mass produce it. weirs at this point is still back at the disk drives claims, great in a lab, but lets see the permitivitty results...

If I was to guess, i think they can make them on a mass level, but at this point they have to many defects to be able to start commercial production.

That is why weirs is saying we have made great progress after he said a month before that comment he will soon release the permittivty results.

b said...

Anonymous blogging has advantages for one's private life.

Jonathan said...

Indeed Mr. Weir!

mrjerry said...

Found this today

Peak Oil News
A Compilation of New Developments, Analysis,
and Web Postings
Friday, June 27, 2008

have seen EEStor’s facility but those who have, and with whom I have spoken, came away impressed.
Despite these grand claims and remarkable potential, the company has yet to demonstrate a working
unit. When last I spoke with ZENN CEO Ian Clifford he told me functional production storage units were
be delivered later this year, and he advised me a third-party has been verifying EEStor is achieving the
technological milestones. A new report indicates that the third party testing data would be released within
the next several weeks. If the breakthrough is real, quite possibly lithium-ion batteries will have a strong
competito

nekote said...

mrjerry,

Its NOT 1,000 of layers, for the moment.
Its 100.

It think the quality control that is likely to be at issue is the ability to eliminate / minimize voids in all layers, how ever many there are. I would think some very minor defects might NOT cause problems. Question is, what's "very minor", when you're working at the 1 micron size level? (I do love the -150 °C cryogenic temperatures being used to aid shattering embrittled materials down to the 1 micron size level!) And, how to test / detect / consequences of "chicklets" that don't pass the minimum Quality Control.


The Peak Oil article - more of the endless senseless static plaver - no actual information - "soon".

Tom Villars said...

Regarding explosive discharges of 52 kWh in an accident, I'd imagine they'll handle it the same way the Toyota Prius does which is a cut off switch that activates on impacts sufficient to trigger the airbag. Build this into the EESU and the exposed connectors go dead on impact.

ZENN's agreement with EEStor includes both performance and safety specifications. I'd be very surprised if something so basic was left out of the agreement.

A more realistic concern that is true for all EVs and HEVs is the danger to technicians during servicing. This will be new technology to most auto mechanics and I'm sure we'll read about some poor guy electrocuting himself while trying to fix a turn signal. The idiots in the media will plaster it all over the news until the next "if it bleeds it leads" story comes alone.

What I found most interesting in the patent was claim 12 where the the voltage was ramped upped to 5000 V and "dielectric saturation has not been reached." This shows you can actually double the density and specific energy with the existing prototypes. I think this is a good sign the technology has room for improvement in the future.

And finally here is a fun question to ponder. Assuming electricity cost $0.10 per kWh how much would it cost to run a million cycle test?

1,000,000 * 52 kWh * ($0.10 / kWh) = $5.2 million

Wow, that is a pretty expensive test! Brownie point for the first person to figure out how to keep the electricity cost down to under $10.00 :-)

dmon said...

Tom V: for the million-cycle-test... two EESUs back-to-back. Charge EESU-A fully, then allow it to discharge into EESU-B, flip the relays and go back into EESU-A. There will of course be some loss in each cycle, but the amount of new energy needed will be relatively low.

Tom Villars said...

dmon congrats, you win a brownie point.

dmon said...

:) thanks Tom. Here's hoping that ZNN shares are worth much more than Brownie points...

Tom Villars said...

LOL. Yes I hope so too.

nekote said...

The working estimate being used is 52 kWh for 300 miles (an estimated 14 HP needed at 60(!) MPH - 5 hours driving time). Obviously greater range at lower speeds.

52 kWh @ 10¢/kWh = $5.20 to "fill up" the "tank".

Whereas 300 miles @ 30 MPG = 10 gallons of gasoline - @ $4/gallon, $40.

8:1 cost advantage (@ 10¢/kWh & $4/gallon)


dmon - 2 (or more) ESUs would almost certainly have been used for the million cycle testing. I wonder how much the losses - ESU to ESU re-charge - actually were. Another important and technically interesting detail.


As to the potential for catastrophic discharges ("explosions"), I'd think (replaceable) fusible links / fuses would be inexpensive and sure fire. 52 kWh discharge over 5 Hours = 10 KW. @ 3,500V, that's a minimum of a 3 Ampere fuse - but would limit re-charging to 5 hours. For that vaunted 5 minute re-charge, it would need a 180 Amp limit. Is there any sort of off the shelf (and inexpensive?) variable circuit breaker / fusing that can be set, based on an authorizing input signal that is varied, depending on the intended power draw?


As for personnel safety, the Prius has already started breaking that ground. They're using brightly colored insulation on the high voltage conductors. First responders are also being trained up - in particular those using the "Jaws of Life" tools.



Having millions of mobile (vehicle) ESU units plugged into the grid when parked would certainly make for many, many advantages all the way around. Electrical grid temporal load balancing - eliminating the peak load phenomenon - by drawing on the ESUs. Greater utilization of the existing electrical grid. *Lower* electricity rates - only the incremental cost of additional fuel (coal / nuclear) for base load generation stations. Off-peak "refueling" of vehicles. A fantastic UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) that could last for many, many days of minimal use (during a grid outage), ...

mrjerry said...

As faras Sasfety read this from dick weirs interview
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm

"Weir says the voltage will be stepped down with a bi-directional converter, and the whole system will be secured in a grounded metal box. It won't have a problem getting an Underwriters Laboratories safety certification, he adds. "If you drive a stake through it, we have ways of fusing this thing where all the energy is sitting there but it won't arc … It will be the safest battery the world has ever seen."

nekote said...

thanks mrjerry for digging that up.

I do remember it.

I was heartened to read it and know it had been recognized and "dealt" with.

I just want to see the details and know how and why it will always work.

'Cause if it doesn't *ALWAYS* work, under *ALL* conditions, there'll be hell (and lawyers) to pay.

Manthan said...

so were is this news?

ankur said...

I will wait for more info about this EEStor .Its increasing my interest in it .




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